Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities

[VtwinVince]

The real "Fliegermord" occurred over Dresden in February, 1945.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

The real "Fliegermord" occurred over Dresden in February, 1945.

The intention was no different than in 100 or more other such raids by all sides but the implementation of the plan was more successful.

If on the other hand you were to condemn all bombing of civilian populations then at least you would you have logic and consistency on your side.

[RT]

you were to condemn all bombing of civilian populations...

You are pretty right, nd to go further it seems that during the 2.WW, the victory at any cost reach a climax, nd give the trend for the next 50 years, nd maybe the worst is to come not sure that we hv paid all the cost of the amorality/cynism/sense of reality delpoyed during the past years
Concerning the bombings, I never understood the one of Rotterdam, at that time in was not in the habits...

remi

[Ruy Horta]

I didn't post this to discuss atrocities in general, not to argue about the figure and certainly not to start a tit for tat debate on who was responsible for more atrocities.

As Franek pointed out, I question using a single source for such a sensitive topic, and more so since it happens to be an internet source.

This is something that caught my eye.

The book itself is promising and I'll read it fully once I have finished reading a couple of other books which have priority.

[Sylvester Stadler]

Having just finished Bergström's interesting book, my initial impression is that it is a good overview of the first six months of the eastern campaign's battles in the air. However, I question his judgment that it was the Soviet AF that stopped or slowed down the armored advances toward Leningrad or Moscow. He probably does not have access to the divisional histories of the 1st PD, the 2nd SS ID (mot), 3rd SS ID (mot), 7th PD, 29th ID (mot), etc. In the first instance, he would have known that the Ist PD had broken through the defensive rings around Leningrad and was set to take the city in an assault, when the order from Hitler arrived halting all advances on the city which was to be besieged. The failure to take Moscow was as a result of Hitler's orders to finish the cauldron around Kiev when Moscow could have been taken in August or September 1941. The slow advance and temporary halts were also due mainly to the lack of hard roads in Russia when the rains turned everything to a mud pie.

The chapter on atrocities was out of place in such a work. I especially question his use of such discredited historians such as Goldhagen, which have even been questioned by reputable Jewish historians, and Ward Churchill, whose main claim to fame is that he stated that the victims of 9/11 deserved their fate. Christer quotes Churchill who claims that "perhaps as many as a million troops...were simply executed by Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS units rather than being taken prisoner in the first place." No evidence is cited that such activity ever occured. Bergström also cites that 381,000 Wehrmacht soldiers died in Soviet captivity. This is the understatement of the century. It is known that Stalin gave the orders within days of the start of the campaign to kill or destroy anything German. Until Stalingrad, Germans who surrendered were routinely killed and during the entire war, those Germans who were wounded and fell into Soviet hands were killed on the spot since they would require medical care and could not be forced into labor. Of the 90,000 soldiers who surrendered at Stalingrad, 5,000 ever returned to Germany.

No mention is ever made of the two million German women and girls who were raped by the liberating Red Army who committed the same crimes in Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary. The Red Army also murdered millions of civilians in these countries, the same of which had been committed in the areas taken prior to 22 June 1941.

I have seen estimates that the Red Army sent some five million military and civilian personnel to the USSR for forced labor of which some one million never returned, forever missing.

I think Christer needs to look at the case of Katyn to determine the nature of the Communist beast.

[Franek Grabowski]

Why, the fun just starts. Otherwise it looks like an attempt of censorship. Just let's see how the discussion develops.

[Franek Grabowski]

Having heard a comment that Auschwitz was a spa comparing to Gulag, I would be much more cautious with such one sided statements. One side was worth of another as the proverb says.

[VtwinVince]

I think we can all agree that horrible atrocities were committed by all sides during the last war, without exception. I recall talking to Rod Smith, former CO of 401 RCAF, who related how he and his squadron mates were ordered to "shoot anything that moved" during the latter stages of 2 TAF's campaign over Europe, and how, one day, he deliberately shot up a woman pushing a baby carriage. Just following orders.....

[Franek Grabowski]

No, we cannot. There is a major difference between incidents and general policy. Concerning 2 TAF, there was indeed a case of a general who said on a briefing to strafe anything that moves to let know every Hausfrau what the war is but it was followed by a written order clearly stating that this does not refer to civilian targets. Thus I have no idea what orders Rod Smith followed.

[Ruy Horta]

Whatever the exact circumstances it is clear by the previous statement that there was some uncertainty with aircrew. At best it was an unclear order. Likewise if a similar directive had been issued by the OKL it would have been regarded as proof of intent, regardless if there had been a counter order. Generally everything on the ground was fair game if it remotely looked like a target (and anything besides if over Germany proper).

Besides there is little in RAF policy that puts such an order out of place. We are talking about the same general policy that aims at bombing the Germans back to the stone age. Strafing a civilian isn't different from bombing him.