First Luftwaffe victory over RAF

[tcolvin]

To answer my own question; http://www.ww2.dk/misc/ob1939.htm states that 2/ZG26 operated out of Werl. But that is too far away in North Rhine Westpahlia. So it must have been Varel.

[christian]

Hi

The 2./ZG 26 came from Varel. Leutnant Hans Falke was killed in a crash at Mellum Plate in a combat with a Blenheim. Unteroffizier Richard Woick shot down a Blenheim in the same area.

Greetings Christian

[tcolvin]

Thank you everybody. All my questions are answered. The information that no Bf109 was lost that day is surprising, but you are the experts.
Tony

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello all,

2./ZG 76 lost a Me 109D-1 on 4 Sep 39 - Leutnant Hans Fake kia. Cause: Motorschaden. Crashed near Mellum, north of Wilhelmshaven. (Source: Prien et all, JFV, Teil 2, page 557)

Best wishes
Rob

[Brian]

Hi Rob & Tony & others

Is the conclusion that the Sheer shot down the Bf109D of 2/ZG76 - therefore a friendly fire incident?

Cheers
Brian

[tcolvin]

Christian, hi.

I am glad you have these pictures.
But Feldwebel Alfred Held of II./JG77 from Nordholz remains the first Luftwaffe pilot to shoot down an RAF aircraft.
Maybe Lt Falcke was the first Luftwaffe pilot to be shot down by the RAF, but history records that he was shot down by the Scheer's Flak.

All the best to you, and thanks again to everyone for their help. Tony

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

from your posts it becomes obvious, that the information I have had so far relating to the loss of Lt. Falke's Bf 109 on September 4th, 1939, was incomplete or rather incorrect with respect to the cause of the crash. The loss return that the information in JFV 2, p. 557 was based upon, did say nothing about "friendly fire".

In order to substantiate a correction of the information presented in JFV 2, I would kindly request you to provide me - off board - with copies of the KTB entry of the "Admiral Scheer " where the shooting down of a Bf 109 is mentioned and of other documents relevant to this loss. The KTB of the Navy High Command - KTB der SKL, Teil A - mentiones only the shooting down of a Ju 52 on September 5th, causing seven dead, whereas there is no hint at the incident of the day before.

Thank you in advance and

kind regards

Jochen Prien

[Franek Grabowski]

Sorry Tony, did not notice the title.
I am wondering if reported friendly fire Me 109 loss could be another aircraft rather than Falke's one. Indeed, only one Ju 52 is listed by GQ6 as shot down by Scheer and perhaps only incidents involving human losses were included?

[tcolvin]

Hi Franek. There is nothing to be sorry about. And, by the way, as you will know Wilhelmshaven was eventually liberated by the Polish armoured brigade.

I am asking a contact in Wilhelmshaven to send a copy of Scheer's KTB to Jochen so he can have documentary proof of the friendly fire event.

To answer your question, I made a mistake about the second Ju52. I did not read the entry in Greve properly. What he wrote (my translation) was:
"Two days later the regulation (made September 5 that Wilhelmshaven and the Jade were prohibited to aircraft) was tested. At 0755hrs the Fliegeralarm sounded on the Scheer. The ship opened fire on an approaching aircraft at a distance of 4,000 metres. The plane drew off at the first salvo and fired the recognition signal. It turned out to be a Ju52. After cease-fire and an exchange of messages it was reported that the aircraft suffered no damage". I apologise for my earlier mistake.

Greve's source is the KTBs of the Scheer and Marinestation der Nordsee. In case you and others might be interested and can understand German, this is what Greve wrote about what we must assume to have been Lt Falcke's death.
"Im Laufe des anschliessenden Gefechtes wurden die drei angreiffenden Maschinen (obviously the Blenheims) von der Bordflak der Schiffe abgeschossen. Hierbei geriet ein deutsches Jagdflugzeug vom Typ Me 109 in das Abwehrfeuer der Schiffe und ging durch Abschuss verloren. Der Pilot konnte nur noch tot geborgen werden".

Tony

[christian]

Hi

The Ju 52 D-AGZI war shot down down by own Flak by Schilling. The Ju was on the way from Kiel to Jever.

Christian