Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??

[harrison987]

Hi,

Let me back up a bit a there is a statement I want to withdraw...

I do agree with the statement Franek said below:

"...various unused assemblies like fuselages, wings, tails, canopies were put together depending on their availability. This explains so many combinations of parts visible on new built aircraft. Also, some parts must have been modified, those including fuselages. Nonetheless I would hardly call a new built G-6 fuselage converted on assembly line to G-10 status, an old, worn part."


My response was in regards to the "G-10 being a Brand-New aircraft of Brand New construction."

I took that statement as the G-10 being a NEW DESIGN, and NEWLY BUILT aircraft (as with the F-4, G-2, G-6, K-4), etc.

What I thought you were saying, Ferdinando , is that that the G-10 was an official "new model" aircraft design of new construction ...which, of course it never was.

The G-10 could never have a been was a regular production aircraft of new design, as none of the necessary documentation would exist to support that (such as manuals or handbooks), as they did for all other aircraft.

The mis-communication (which is a result of me typing quickly and not reading my post) is ia m NOT saying that there were a bunch of derelict airframes sitting around needing repair, so they threw together as many parts as possible and pieced them together to make a G-10...

The airframes and parts were already there (and some already constructed), before they went through the upgrade process.

The other issue is that there are many other books saying the opposite...stating they were both new and remanufactured...and also repaired aircraft.



Soo...

Though I understand Franek's comments on converting the windscreen, there is no way to repair the windscreen to airworthy status without replacing the entire aluminum section. The frontal section is a one-piece stamped section of aluminum.

So...either way, the aluminum has to be replaced. By doing so, I have the option of upgrading it. Whatever I replace will not be original anyway, and the only parts I can really re-use are the vent port and the attachment for the windscreen cleaner. Everything else cannot really be kept.

What I really need are pics, drawings or scans of the K style frontage from as many angles as possible...

Can anyone help?

[Franek Grabowski]

I understood that the windscreen is for a static cockpit section. This bit could be restored to static condition, but perhaps for a flyer it would be better to make everything anew?

[harrison987]

Hi!

No, I need it airworthy. The canopy itself is good as it is steel...but the aluminum would have to be fully replaced to be airworthy.

Tough decision...



Mike

[olefebvre]

Originally Posted by harrison987

What I thought you were saying, Ferdinando , is that that the G-10 was an official "new model" aircraft design of new construction ...which, of course it never was.

The G-10 could never have a been was a regular production aircraft of new design, as none of the necessary documentation would exist to support that (such as manuals or handbooks), as they did for all other aircraft.

I dislike to be the party breaker but there is a G-10 manual, i know for sure since i own a copy.

Regards,
Olivier

[Franek Grabowski]

Mike, I can arrange a flyable copy if you wish, but for God's sake, do not dump original piece!

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by olefebvre

I dislike to be the party breaker but there is a G-10 manual, i know for sure since i own a copy.

Regards,
Olivier

I totally agree with Olivier since I also own a copy.

[veltro]

Originally Posted by John Beaman

Quote:
Originally Posted by olefebvre
I dislike to be the party breaker but there is a G-10 manual, i know for sure since i own a copy.

Regards,
Olivier

I totally agree with Olivier since I also own a copy.

...I rest my case...

[harrison987]

Originally Posted by John Beaman

I totally agree with Olivier since I also own a copy.

I went through ALL the archives at EADS, the Messerchmitt Foundation, and the largest personal collections in the world...and not once have I found an original manual or handbook. There are also NO records at EADS of any such documents every being made for the G-10. It skips from G-6, 12, 14 and then to K-4.

In the 70's there were some fake ones produced, which were copied from the G and K manuals, but never have I found an original.

I would like to see pics of these if possible...

I am not doubting the originality, but after not seeing one in 20 years of collecting, and the fact that both EADS and the Messerschmitt Foundation say they ever made one for the G-10 according to all records...then what is it you have? From what I know, G-10 manuals (handbook parts, manuals or otherwise) were not made due to the huge differences between all the model assemblies.

Please attach pics, as it would be interesting to see what we are talking about here as it would add to my own knowledge...

[von Lutz]

Attachment 1290
I think the difference is not G or K but whehter the aircaft has an MG 151/20 or MK-108. The former has the ammo bin in the left wing while the latter had it directly above the cannon. This reguired access to the top of the MK 108 ammo bin just forward of the windscreen. As seen in the attached foto of the PoF Bf 109G-10, the steel welded cover in front of the windscreen was required to be able to access the top of the ammo bin. Also the MK 108 elect. panel lying horizontal above the ammo bin opening could be rotated 90 degrees toward the windscreen. Both G-10s restored by Evergreen have this same style cover.

Sorry you were unable to get a response from PoF, but the Valle museum crew consists of only a few people how have every little time to answer inquiries.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

[von Lutz]

More on the G-10 handbuch controversy, I may be the origin of the "questionable" copy mentioned. Back in the late 1970s I found a xerox copy of the Bf 109G-10 Teil 0 handbook. At this point the source has been long forgotten, (possibly John Caler?). In 1982 I retyped and reprinted several hundred copies, since the cockpit foto was missing I used a shot of the Chino PoF G-10. I have no reason to believe the xerox copy was phony. The inside cover like other handbücher (see attached) lists all the applicable Tiele. The only other G-10 was Teil 9B H2 Elect. Schematics. Every other Teil refers to earlier Gs or later K-4s.