Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"

[RT]

Bill,

One is to give away stuff, I am not the last to make that, an other is to offer a structured data-base, even for some thousands dollars is no worth, so for 10 or 20 imagine...

rémi

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

I firmly believe the only way to go about this issue is to make the data available through a relational database, which references the source of the information, and I also believe that publishing it via some format is Ok, but the data then is only static...

We all know that all the time new information appear, that offers further insight and better quality of data, from an immense number of localized and centralized sources.

Of course, guys like Remi and Jim knows about the amount of work that go into creating such a database and publishing it.

I have created a database that now have been proofed by other helping hands with regards to flexibility and ability to cross-reference the kind of information we need to use in this work, and it is working without flaws.

I have also created a user interface for the database based on ASP.NET 2.0 which give a nice object-oriented way of programming views etc for the database.

My idea the whole time has been that the database should be available on the internet, but I am not willing to give the entire content of it away for free.

So I have kind of decided for a membership scheme, and the guys I have been talking to also suggest that membership would be by personal application, with references, thus you would have to have one guy I trust vouch for your integrity. (as one put it earlier here, this would be like putting your hand into the pot of honey and withdraw the good stuff... instantly...)

So my question to you guys is then:

What would be a reasonable fee for allowing access to such a source of data?

As of now, the data consist of:

All losses registered by the Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. for frontline and school + other units

A serious amount of losses for 1944 where data come from the Namentliche Verlustemeldungen (numbers here are increasing all the time)

All summary loss record for frontline units (which of course give you the basic data for all losses sustained in 1944)

All available strength reports of the frontline units from March 1942 through December 1944, with additional information from other sources from the time before and after these dates for some units.

In addition, the user interface is based upon the idea that all that have access will be able to participate in the process of enhancing the data. Thus - if you for example come across a piece of information in the WASt, the BA-MA, in a local police report or whatever that will give additional information, you can add this, and we all instantly can see this.
(I have included a scheme here that allows the author to set a access level for new information, so that you can use the online database to store information that you are not willing to shae with others, for example while gathering data for a publication, so you do not HAVE to share immediately, but can wait until publication date for example)

I have also included a personnel record, aircraft record and 'war diary' in the system.

The personnel record was a result of my own need to gather information not only about aircraft losses, but also other info about a persons career in the Luftwaffe. Some information is inserted automatically, when you enter a loss where a certain person is involved, you will be able to see this in his personnel record etc etc

The aircraft record was born as a need to follow the tracks of a given aircraft from it was produced until it was destroyed. Some aircraft will appear in a lot of records, like photographs, inventory returns, operational information (He 59 XX+XX on search & rescue patrol from 09:07 to 11:56).

The war diary is where I keep my dated records, photos, extracts from KTB's, and all snippets of information.

All relevant information is of course linked and referenced, which in my opinion is very important. If you do not know where the information originally came from (book, photogrpahic interpretation, original document...) it is more or less useless.

So, hopefully you will have some comments on how to proceed with this?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Franek Grabowski]

Andreas, well, for some 100$ is nothing and for some 1$ is a fortune. Mind the interest in history is not limited geographically.
How about adding photos to the database?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Andreas I will without problem pay for use of your database. For me it will always be more interesting than buying the list and having to insert them into a database of my own.

Then the shape you can give to the website will depend of what you want to show. A good example IMHO of a good Internet database with both public (free) and private (not free) access is www.uboat.net.

The main danger you will be facing will be "data stealing", but I think you can reduce it by limiting the number of requests per day to a reasonable number.

[Mikael Olrog]

Andreas has a very interesting project going which I think deserve its own thread to reach all on TOCH. As it is now some people might have stopped following this thread.

Regarding the project Andreas told us about;
It is positive (clever) that you have added some very usefull functions/ research tools which I definately think you should charge a fee for. Obviously access to the database is worth paying a fee for too.

I would expect that there is a correlation between the size of the membership fee and the willingness to add and correct data in the base.
With a membership fee set to high the willingness to add and to correct data in the database will be lower since the member feels that he/she is paying for the access/information and has the right to the information/functionality.

Possibly you could stimulate the willingness to share/correct data by for example extending the membership for those who actively contribute. In that way one could possibly secure a free (?) membership by contributing a lot. Just an idea.

The question is Andreas what the purpose of the fee is since it will affect who will join.
Is it to secure that only serious researchers will join?
Is it to secure funding for maintaining and further developing the database/functionality?
Is it a way to make some money for the founding team (e.g. support further research trips to Freiburg etc)?

Would you accept publishers and magazines as members?

/Mikael

[Peter D Evans]

I think this is a great idea put forward by Andreas and Mikael has raised some very good points. I for one would be willing to pay/subscribe especially given that I (and many others here) know from first hand experience the time and cost involved with undertaking all aspects of research.

But how do you stop that data becoming available to those who have either not paid/subscribed, or stop unscrupulous individuals selling the data by other means? The simple answer with both these points is that we can't as it's the one aspect of this wonderful medium we all use and enjoy that cannot be policed or moderated.

Other than that, I'd support this project best I can and ensure it gains good coverage over on the LEMB...

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello all,

Please check the LBB forum - as there was a similar discussion going on -

see: http://www.luftwaffe-bullet-board.co...ght=abst%FCrze

Regards
Rob

[Laurent Rizzotti]

One solution to give access without allowing easy copy will be to build "image files" covering say 50 losses, and link each loss of the database to the page displaying it.

Then a search will return a list of pages, with the line number, but by clicking on it you will see the good thing on the screen but could not download it easily into another database, you will have to type it again.

Another idea is to limit access to known reliable people. But you can never be sure...

[drgondog]

Well - I for one would pay either subscrition fee or search/find fee (the latter harder to construct for billing purposes) and to the serious researchers you may still have all my stuff on 355th for free

Regards,

Bill

[Dénes Bernád]

Would it be feasable for you, or someone else you fully trust, to check for specific inquiries for a nominal fee? This way, you could make sure the information is not 'leaked'.

For example, I would be interested to know for the book I am currently fevereshly working on, if the Soviet claim of "five of the nine Ju 52s, transporting fuel for German armour, shot down in Nikolayev area on 10 Aug. 1941" has any backing in your database or not (I couldn't find anything in mine).