Rammelt - 14 October 1943

[Leo Etgen]

Hello

On 14 October 1943, Hauptmann Karl Rammelt (46 victories, RK), Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 51, claimed his 30th victory during the 8th Air Force raid on Schweinfurt but was himself shot down and forced to bale out of his Bf 109 G-6. Would anyone have any additional details on his fighter such as tactical code and/or werknummer? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo

[Norbert Schuchbauer]

I have two losses:
unfortunately no name, but here they are:
South Aschaffenburg Bf 109 G-6 WNr. 160037 65%
West Würzburg Bf 109 G-6 WNr. 160043 40%
both reported as forced landings after aerial combat.

Hopr this helps,

Norbert

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Norbert

Many thanks for kindly taking the time to answer my post. How strange that the information I have states that II./JG 51 lost five Bf 109 G-6 shot down of which four of the pilots baled out and the other made a forced landing. However, if your lost list information is that there were two forced landing then I will go with that. Many thanks for your information!

Horrido!

Leo

[Jim P.]

14-Oct-43, Bf 109G-6, 18843, Stedtfeld, Ltn. Günther, 32, JG 51, 4., , , SO+XP, , 14-Oct-43, , WIA due to Luftkampf. FSA., , RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22; Aders/Held, JG 51, p.143, , Freidberg, 100%, F
14-Oct-43, Bf 109G-6, 160014, Lange, Uffz. (?), , JG 51, 4., , , KO+PJ, , 14-Oct-43, , Luftkampf. FSA., , RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22; Aders/Held, JG 51, p.143, , südöstlich Siegen, 100%, F
14-Oct-43, Bf 109G-6, 18893, n.n., , JG 51, 4., , , KI+ON, , 14-Oct-43, , Crashed after Luftkampf., , RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22, , bei Frankfurt am Main, 100%, F
14-Oct-43, Bf 109G-6, 160043?, Hammer, Ltn. Joachim, 35, JG 51, 6., , , CM+ZP?, , 14-Oct-43, , Notlandung due to Luftkampf., 'IM+ZP' per Schmoll?, RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22; Aders/Held, JG 51, p.143; Menke, SKZ list, , westlich Würzburg, 40%, F
14-Oct-43, Bf 109G-6, 160019, n.n., , JG 51, II., , , KO+PO, , 14-Oct-43, , Undercarriage damage., , RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22, , Fl.Pl. Echterdingen, 10%, F
14-Oct-43, Bf 109G-6, 160030, n.n., , JG 51, II., , , CM+ZC?, , 14-Oct-43, , Crashed after Luftkampf., 'KO+PZ' per Schmoll?, RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22, , Koblenz, 100%, F
14-Oct-43, Bf 109G-6, 160037, n.n., , JG 51, II., , , CM+ZJ, , 14-Oct-43, , Notlandung after Luftkampf., 'IM+ZJ' per Schmoll?, RLV, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.22, , südlich Aschaffenburg, 65%, F

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Jim

Many thanks for once again coming to the rescue with your information! Too bad that Rammelt is not listed by name but I am intrigued by that entry of Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 160 030). If it is true that Rammelt baled out, and the only other un-named fighter that crashed is listed as being of the 4. Staffel, then possibly that was the fighter that he was flying that day. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part so who knows. Many thanks for this information! I must say that I am sorry to read that some jerk has stolen your research and then had the nerve to make a buck off of it as if it were his. Do you have any idea how someone could have gotten access to your files? You have always been most generous to help me out on this forum when I have asked for loss list information, information which has taken years of effort to compile. Many thanks and good luck with your attempt to prevent this sort of theft.

Horrido!

Leo

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

Seems that Aders/Held have been able to link more pilots to aircraft that are in the original reports, and I would thus also put a questionmark behind these (however, using surviving log books etc would enable you to do this with certainty).

Of the 6 aircraft which were damaged to different extents due to enemy action on this date, it seems that 4 crashed (and were totally destroyed), while 2 were damaged in emergency landings.

As there was only one person injured (Schedtfeld or Stedtfeld), it is reasonable to suggest that he and the three others made it by using the parachutes.

As Rammelt was the GrK his loss should be noted as II./J.G.51 in the loss listings, and one can rule out the ones mentioning a specific Staffel.

Thus, the possibilities would then be limited to 160030, assuming that he did in fact jump and not perform an emergency landing.

His aircraft would then probably still be under some plowfield near Koblenz... maybe one should bring a metal detector for the next visit to the Bundesarchiv-Bildarchiv?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Norbert Schuchbauer]

In my database I have the same Stammkennzeichen "as per Schmoll"

Norbert