Placing the Bell P39 Aircobra.

[tcolvin]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

It does not change the fact, that dive bombers appeared in 1930s and were destined mostly to pin-point such targets like ships, thus most of them were naval aircraft. Ju 87 was an exception rather than the rule, and still a lot of its job was hitting naval targets.
Then again, Soviets had no dive bomber in the sense of Ju 87, and simply I do not understand what actually the argument is.

Dive bombing was far more important than you realise, Franek.

The first pilot to dive bomb was Lieutenant Harry Brown of 84 Squadron RFC who sank a munitions barge by dive bombing on the Western Front in 1917.
The RFC then conducted trials and experiments which the RAF continued at Orfordness in Suffolk, England through 1918-1919. They concluded the method gave great accuracy but was dangerous (no air brakes).

The first USAAC dive bombers were Attack Group 3 led by Lewis Brereton who had been taught by the RFC in France in 1918. They patrolled the Mexican border in the early 1920s. In the 1920s the USN and Marine Corps adopted dive bombing. The IJN followed suit and produced a succession of designs. Germans developed the He 50 in Russia and Udet bought Helldivers. The Germans saw the work of the Swedes at Froesen in 1934 and rejected rockets in favour of dive bombing. The first German unit was Jagdgeschwader 132 equipped with He 50 dive bombers. They refined their tactics and equipment in Spain.
The RN pressured the RAF to supply the Skua.
By 1939 there were quite a few dive bombers due to their inherent accuracy.
USA - Vought SBU Vindicator, Douglas SBD Dauntless, Curtis SB2C Helldiver, Vultee A34 Vengeance, and Brewster SB2A Buccaneer;
Germany - Ju 87 and Ju 88;
Japan - Aichi D3A1 Val, Yokasuka D4Y Comet, and Aichi B7A Shooting Star; USSR they had developed the technology - Archangelski AR-2, and soon introduced the Petlyakov Pe-2 Peshka;
UK - Hawker Henley and Blackburn Skua;
Poland - PZL P38 Wilk;
France - Loire Nieuport LN 401/410;
Italy - Savoia Marchetti SM85/86;
Sweden - Saab 18;
Bulgaria - DAF 10F;
Roumania - IAR 81.

The argument in a nutshell is whether the RAF refused to operate dive bombers for political or technical reasons.

You seem to question whether anyone except the Luftwaffe and naval aviation (USN, IJN and RN) operated dive bombers. I wonder if you would share your reasons for believing this.

Tony

[Franek Grabowski]

Tony, we talk about WWII, are not we?

Originally Posted by tcolvin

Germans developed the He 50 in Russia and Udet bought Helldivers.

It was Export Hawk but it does not matter.

USA - Vought SBU Vindicator, Douglas SBD Dauntless, Curtis SB2C Helldiver, Vultee A34 Vengeance, and Brewster SB2A Buccaneer;

Of these first three are naval aircraft, of the latter only Vengeance saw limited use. You could mention A-24 as well.

Germany - Ju 87 and Ju 88;

Ju 87 since 1942/43 was used as ordinary level bomber and gradually replaced with Fw 190F. Ju 88 is in another league like He 177.

Japan - Aichi D3A1 Val, Yokasuka D4Y Comet, and Aichi B7A Shooting Star;

Naval aircraft.

USSR they had developed the technology - Archangelski AR-2, and soon introduced the Petlyakov Pe-2 Peshka;

Pe-2 used mostly as a level bomber and in the same 'shallow' league as Ju 88. Ar-2 hardly widespread and quickly phased out.

UK - Hawker Henley and Blackburn Skua;

Henley never saw active service. Skua - naval.

Poland - PZL P38 Wilk;

Never heard of it being a dive bomber.

France - Loire Nieuport LN 401/410;

Limited quantities.

Italy - Savoia Marchetti SM85/86;

Never seen that.

Sweden - Saab 18;

Is not it post-war?

Bulgaria - DAF 10F;

Limited production if any.

Roumania - IAR 81.

Outdated fighter turned into fighter bomber. I would put it in the same league as eg. Spitfire.
Mate, tell me what major power used dive bombers for ground support, apart of early use of Ju 87s?

[tcolvin]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Tony, we talk about WWII, are not we?

Mate, tell me what major power used dive bombers for ground support, apart of early use of Ju 87s?

No, Franek.

We talk about your statement; "It does not change the fact, that dive bombers appeared in 1930s and were destined mostly to pin-point such targets like ships, thus most of them were naval aircraft."

Your "fact" is not true. Agree? Dive bombing appeared in 1917 and was taken up enthusiastically by all of the major powers because of its unmatched accuracy.

The major powers then dropped it, except for the Ju 87 which was close to being a war-winning weapon and was later fitted with an accurate gun, for entirely spurious reasons to do with Douhet and strategic bombing as expounded by Portal, Harris, Slessor, and Dr. Strangelove.

Tony

[tcolvin]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Pe-2 used mostly as a level bomber and in the same 'shallow' league as Ju 88. Ar-2 hardly widespread and quickly phased out.

Mate, tell me what major power used dive bombers for ground support, apart of early use of Ju 87s?

In the interesting " Conversations with N. G. Golodnikov" by Andrei Sokhorukov at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...ikov/part4.htm, Golodnikov does not deny, and therefore assents to, the statement by Sokhorukov made in the following extract, that the Pe-2 was employed as a vertical dive bomber just like the Ju-87.

A.S. This question is not exactly on topic, but in your view, was the Ju-88 a better dive bomber than the Pe-2?
N.G. The Ju-88 never dropped bombs from a dive, only in horizontal flight.
A.S. Well, according to reference book data, the Ju-88 was a dive bomber.
N.G. Aren’t you a little confused? The Germans’ dive bomber was the Ju-87 Laptezhnik. This aircraft only bombed out of a dive. It bombed very accurately, but was also very slow. It was relatively easy to shoot down. In my opinion, the Germans stopped using it in the North sometime in mid-1944.
The Ju-88? I never saw it drop bombs from a dive and never heard that it was used that way either.


Franek; would you please provide evidence that the Pe-2 was not employed as a vertical dive-bomber like the Ju-87, Vengeance and Skua. No one on this forum is permitted ex cathedra statements which contradict Shores. Your evidence, please.





Tony