Top Jet Aces

[Graham Boak]

A few points to bear in mind.

Whatever was claimed as total scores by the propaganda/publicity machines may bear little relationship to the claims made by individual pilots, or even the sum of such claims.

The leader, such as Peplyayev, usually scores most of the kills. Such claims are normally more creditable than those made by pilots "in the pack".

The total of 78 Sabres lost in aerial combat has been queried by recent serious historians: it seems that the USAF was not beyond selective categorising.

Not every UN aircraft over Korea was a Sabre.

My point about the Israeli, and he could have been of any nation, was that a claim of 17 was not "evidently" more accurate than a Russian pilot's claim of 18. Perhaps it is more accurate: but your terminology implies bringing the conclusion to the discussion in advance.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Franek,

Were can you see, that I said, they don't? Sutyagin was the most succesful jet vs jet pilot for sure with 21 confirmed kills (but as I said, in my humble opinion, only on paper). I always differentiate between the claims and the real air victories (since claiming a hostile plane is one thing, shot it down in real - it is one another).

Regarding the Israeli claims and their reliability: I don't have details from Egypt, but do have some from Syria and - to me, not surprisingly - they admit their losses generally and confirm the Israeli claims. Why would it be different relating to Egypt?

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

A few points to bear in mind.
1. Whatever was claimed as total scores by the propaganda/publicity machines may bear little relationship to the claims made by individual pilots, or even the sum of such claims.

2. The total of 78 Sabres lost in aerial combat has been queried by recent serious historians: it seems that the USAF was not beyond selective categorising.

3. Not every UN aircraft over Korea was a Sabre.

1. In the case of the Soviets in Korea, the victories are what was officially credited at the time in secret. There was no propaganda motive, in the strict sense of the term, in that case.
2. I found, by going through the records case by case, in view of specific Soviet claims, that while 78 is a sloppy total, the true number is not greatly higher, I estimate around 90, including damaged planes were which never repaired. Among potentially more serious people, Ken Werrell in a footnote to "Sabres over MiG Alley" estimated 'around 100'; Warren Thompson and David McLaren in "MiG Alley" gave an appendix where apparent MiG losses were in the mid 70's, and somebody above gave a link to the DPMO database that adds to high 70's (not counting 'damaged'; the DPMO listing of damaged F-86's is very incomplete, but happens to consist almost entirely of planes that were repaired). I'd defend my number in detail over those others, but the point is nobody AFAIK has been serious to the point of actually looking in USAF records and found evidence of a much higher number than 78.
3. The Soviet claims are clear as to type, time and place. I have found no case where F-86's were confused for any other type. That is, in every case I know where the Soviets claimed F-86's downed, USAF records show an encounter by F-86s against MiG's at a reasonably matching time and place. Same for other generic types (straight wing jet, prop fighter, B-29), although within those categories the idenfications were not reliable (ie. claims of F-80's match real combats with F-84's etc). In any case even considering all types, the 'real' number of UN air combat losses is higher than that in the official immediate postwar summary (the USAF FY 1953 Statistics Summary is where almost all the oft repeated numbers come from originally), but not by that much (~proportional to F-86's ~150 official, perhaps 175 actual).

For the Soviets in Korea, and Me-262 pilots, the opposing losses are known in detail day to day, though there's still the issue of how to deal with competing claiming on the ace's own side. In case of the USAF in Korea and Israel's wars the opponent losses aren't generally known day to day. Soviet losses in Korea generally are, but Chinese and NK generally not and all top US ace scores included victories after the Chinese and NK's became a significant part of the MiG force (fall 1951); only total Chinese losses have been officially published, and NK total losses are only approximately known (to have been fairly small).

Joe

[Franek Grabowski]

Joe, by the way, do you have a full list of Soviet victories (read it claims if you wish) in Korea?

[Csaba B. Stenge]

BTW another notable performance: the most succesful F-14 pilot of the Iranian Air Force, Major Jalal Zandi scored nine confirmed air victories against Iraqi jets (two MiG-23'BNs and two Su-22'Ms the others were fighters) Altough there were overclaims in the Iraqi-Iranian war (and false reports by propaganda), he was the most succesful jet pilot of the last three decades.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Csaba Becze

BTW another notable performance: the most succesful F-14 pilot of the Iranian Air Force, Major Jalal Zandi scored nine confirmed air victories against Iraqi jets (two MiG-23'BNs and two Su-22'Ms the others were fighters) Altough there were overclaims in the Iraqi-Iranian war (and false reports by propaganda), he was the most succesful jet pilot of the last three decades.

Well the war was nearly a decade long & both sides used Airpower extensively--Iraq probably MORE so given they had a steady source of planes & spare parts--which Iran probably didn't have QUITE as much; I guess you could say the Good Major had a 'target rich environment'

NM

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Originally Posted by NickM

Well the war was nearly a decade long & both sides used Airpower extensively--Iraq probably MORE so given they had a steady source of planes & spare parts--which Iran probably didn't have QUITE as much; I guess you could say the Good Major had a 'target rich environment'

NM

If you have your own opinion, just write it, but do not say, what should I write.

After the Iraqi-Iranian war, many fellows said (without much available details), that the 'less-qualified' (or in even rude terms: stupid/dumb etc) Iranians were not able to maintain the power of their air force, especially the US types, so they scored nothing. When some more info become available, this opinon turned to be somehing different: scoring air victories with an F-14? Big deal...

Well, during the earlier conflicts and world wars, there were many easy pickings as well, as some of the Iranian F-14 air victories. The Iranian F-14's had some easy kills, of course (the powerful radar and weapon system of the F-14 caused a row of simply 'brutal' air victories, when the Iraqi pilots even didn't know, what happened with them, since the F-14's attacked them from very long distance, from over 50 km)
But the air war was not one-sided, Iraq got much more help from abroad (not just materials, but some help for better training and tactic for their pilots) The air fights were intensive just in periods of the war, so claiming a row of victories were not as easy (and after the first bad experiences, the Iraqi pilots many times tried to avoid the clashes with the F-14's)

I don't think, that 9 jet air victory is only to me a notable performance.

BTW the Iranians had even a pilot, who scored 5 confirmed kills with an F-5, which is very far from the F-14's performance (that particular pilot shot down the most succesful Iraqi pilot, who flew a MiG-25...)

[NickM]

Csaba:

I think you mis-understood me; I wasn't trying to denigrate your information, I was only observing that Iraq-Iran War was a rarity in modern age: a long term war of attrition between two conventional armies that featured an extensive air-war component;

Sorry for the misunderstanding;

NM

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Csaba B. Stenge

BTW another notable performance: the most succesful F-14 pilot of the Iranian Air Force, Major Jalal Zandi scored nine confirmed air victories against Iraqi jets (two MiG-23'BNs and two Su-22'Ms the others were fighters) Altough there were overclaims in the Iraqi-Iranian war (and false reports by propaganda), he was the most succesful jet pilot of the last three decades.

Has there ever been an official ace list issued by the Iraninan authorities ?

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Joe, by the way, do you have a full list of Soviet victories (read it claims if you wish) in Korea?

Good morning Franek,

you find an appealing list about the scores of Soviet Korean War Aces here:
https://www.amazon.de/Soviet-MiG-15-...gateway&sr=8-1
I don't know if a full list of Soviet Korean War kills exists.

Michael