How heavy were LW losses on May 10th 1940?

[Juha]

Hello,
I notice in Denés new book the claim that LW losses on 22th June 41were worst to date it had suffered. The losses were
destroyed or written off due to enemy action 55 (bombers+fight.s+LR recon+ground attack) and 6 others
damaged due to enemy action 30 and 20 others
destroyed or written off because of other causes 13 and 4 others
damaged because of other causes 35 and 4 others.

so altogether 68 bombers+fight.s+LR recon+ground attack a/c and 10 others destroyed or written off
and 65 bombers+fight.s+LR recon+ground attack a/c and 24 others damaged.

Even if those losses were numerically heavier than those suffered by LW During the BoB in 1940
on 18th Aug 71 lost or written off and 25 dam on ops and 8 dam in accidents or by RAF bombings and
on 15th Aug 75 lost or written off and 15 dam on ops and 3 lost and 8 dam in accidents
(figures from The Blitz Then and Now) they were lighter than those suffered on 10th May 1940. That day was very similar to 22th June 1941 but the massive air landing attacks on the earlier date. Highest figures given on LW losses on that day are around 300 lost or written off (of which over ½ Ju 52s) and 50 damaged. Brian Cull et al Twelve Days in May gives LW losses as 131 combat a/c + 22 Fi 156 + 158 Ju 52s ie 311 altogether. Lower figures for ex. in Robert Michulec’s Jagdwaffe in France in Bartlomiej Belcarz’s et al Fighters over France and the Low Countries gives 106 combat a/c and 66 Ju 52s, altogether 172 a/c and maybe those 22 Fi 156s are not included in that number but if they are Belcarz's numbers and that of Williamson Murrey's are closely matched if one assume that those Fi156s were not included in Murrey's figure. Probably Cull et al give all losses and Belcarz those totally lost. Williamson Murrey’s Luftwaffe gives figure 83 lost on May 10th not including Ju 52s. He gives transport losses during May and June 1940 as 213 destroyed and 27 damaged on operations. My guess is that great part of those, maybe even most were lost on May 10th over and on Holland.

So my guess is that LW lost some 170 – 200 a/c totally and some 50 – 110 damaged on May 10th.

Juha

[RT]

Juha,you are a bit far from the , what I hv for the losses on that day 10 th of Mai;

100 % 60%+ 10/50 %

Bf109 11 2 11
Bf110 4
Do17 22 3 7 poss. + 2
Do18 1
Do215 2
fI156 22 2
He111 61 6 23 poss. +9
He59 4
He115 4
Hs123 1 so few, komische Blitzkrieg..
Hs126 3 2 3
jU52 140 58 7 poss. + 3
Ju87 8 2 1 poss +1
Ju88 14 5 2 poss. +3


So something like;

100 % 296
+60 % 78
10/50 % 40

+ poss. 18

Person. casualties
353 dead
148 prisoners
200 wounded
450 missing but some hv to be in the upper lines...

At that rythm the war would hv been over the week next..

Rémi

[Juha]

Thanks a lot, Rémi!
I learned the figure 304 destroyed and 50 damaged in late 70s from Guinness Book of Air Facts and Feats but when I got Williamson Murrey’s Luftwaffe, I began to doubt that, because I have a high regard on that book. When I got Brian’s et al Twelve Days in mid 90s I thought that maybe Guinness was right after all, because in Twelve Days they wrote that “Luftwaffe’s total losses for the day over Holland, Belgium and Northern France amounted to 56 He 111s, 22 Do17Zs…” but after reading Belcarz's article I began to doubt that I had comprehended wrongly the term “total losses” in above sentence and that it might mean “all LW’s losses tallied up as”. That because Murrey’s figure 83 + 22 Fi156s tallied up very well with Belcarz's 106.

So thanks a lot for your figures, May 10th is very important and interesting day.

Juha

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello all,

also see Speidel's studies - see attachement.

Best wishes
Rob

[Juha]

Thanks Rob
thats probably source of Williamson Murrey's figure, but clearly Fi 156 figure is too low, the losses of oper NiWi seems to be ignored and the 2 Bf 110 losses (100% and 90%), probably the 4 He 59 are incl. in He 115 losses etc.

Thanks for the interesting dokument
Juha

[RT]

The losses I gave are based on gen. HQ returns, nd many verificate by NVM, nd numeous other sources, still many work to do but at 90 % they are right nd to the purpose of the thread quite acceptable

but th specific nd important day could for sure start a wider discusson, the first stats are on the table let people free to complete oramend them...

remi

[kalender1973]

Hi,

as I read the different unit stories I had never feeling that Lw suffer high losses in France, especially on 10th may. Only in history of KG54 Radtke wrote about high losses during day ligth sorties therefore it was switch to night operation. But e.g. KG2,KG53 or parts of KG4 has low or no losses on 10th.
What cause high losses of Ju 52 ? Neither Morzik nor Schlaug point out these huge losses of transport planes, 200 in one day ??? But on the other hand all write about huge tradegy of transport planes in Stalingrad or even in Demjansk. And the losses among Fallschirmjäger was also not exceptional high, at least in compare with Crete.

[Juha]

Remi
I don't doubt your figures, in Bingham's Blitzed there is an appendix on German losses and even if it is incomplete it shows very heavy losses.

Igor
I would not say that KG2's six 100% losses and one craslanding with unknown dam % plus some damaged is low figure for one day losses.
Acording to list in Bingham's book KG 1 lost 8, KG 3 11 etc nd in the list there are 125 Ju 52s as 100% lost. IMHO the high Ju52 losses were rather well known here in West, main reasons to Ju 52 losses were Dutch AA and artillery fire and many Ju 52s were wrecked when the pilots found out that it was not possible to land on Dutch airfields and they tried to land on beaches. There was also some straffing and bombing by RAF.

I cannot remember the losses of Fallschirmjäger but IIRC they were not exactly light.

Juha

[Juha]

Hello Rémi
a couple questions.
John’s and Peter’s Zerstörer gives 2 Bf 110 total losses on May 10th, 4./ZG 1 a/c shot down by Flak over Vlissingen and 4./ZG 26 a/c which failed to return from combat mission East of Rethel, what are your other 2?
On He 59s and He 115s, You have 4 each. Bingham’s Blitzed gives 4 He 59s from Staffel Schwilden with W.Nrs and 4 He 115s from F.d.Luft with comment “Destroyed; cause not known”.
Is it possible, that the losses were actually only 4 He 59s. If Staffel Schwilden was an ad hoc formation, which got their a/c from somewhere and Dutch and Allies knew that they had destroyed 4 He59s and the real owner(s) of the lost planes had both He 115s and He 59s and reported the type of 4 a/c lost unclearly there is a possibility that those planes were counted twice.
On reason behind my question is that PzDivs gave their strength returns in 1940-42 written on forms on which column headers were already printed, the main battle tank column header being Pz III. Now in those divisions which had Pz 38(t)s in place of Pz IIIs as their main tank, sometimes the header was corrected to Pz38(t) sometimes not. So without knowing the equipment types beforehand on might got wrong tank type from the original reports.

Juha

[RT]

Concerning th Bf110, seems just three, two for the I.ZG26 seems just one, the others 2 from 6. nd 4. ZG1 in den Helder nd Vlissingen seem different the names of the crew are different
He59 nd He115, quite different the He59 seem to hv been destroyed because of the narrow landing place , channels , in Rotterdam, the He115
destroyed when moored at List, unit are different, just one thing I seen one source indicating the 11. mai, unit is in one case the Kgrzbv.108/7.fl.div. the other is KGr.506

I could provid you with full details for this day, at least those I hv..

remi