Erich Hartmann: 352 victories or... 80?

[Christer Bergström]

Soviet losses stemmed from the fact that the "did not return" category losses are often of the same level as combat losses. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that more than half or so of the "did not return" were caused of loss of orientation, bad weather, loosing instrument in clouds etc.

Was JG 5 the only Luftwaffe unit overclaiming?

If II/JG54 did not overclaim

Is there a discrepancy of the combined total of Luftwaffe claims Christer gave and the total what was submitted from the unit level?

Is the total claims number correct and where is it derived from?

Kari, you have very good questions, they deserve an answer, and I can give you the answers.

But I'm afraid there are too many trolls here - too many people focused on my person instead of the subject as such - so I will leave the discussion. Drop me an e-mail instead, and I'll send you a personal reply. (But don't expect me to give you any names; I will stick to the WW II related questions.)

[Boandlgramer]

a lot of cross reading in this thead.
no reason to become angry , christer .
not everybody is a troll.


maybe another try:
from your post.

German day fighter combat losses in "the West" or over Germany April 1944: 574 (including approximately 70 % to US fighters, an assumption based on extrapolated statistics for a number of selected Geschwader).

were these 574 fighters shot down in the air only and we have to add about the same number lost due accident ?
as graham wrote: accidents made up as many losses as aerial combat

were the german fighter losses in the west in april about 1100 ac ?
or was the accident rate compared to the combat rate even higher than 1: 1 , due the poor training of the new pilots ?

[Boandlgramer]

btw.

these are not MY numbers.
i took them from here:

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/w...d_pdf/t100.pdf

[Christer Bergström]

Boandlgramer, of course I agree on the troll issue. I am avoiding the irritating kids which use this forum as a playground, and I instead send my replies in personal messages to the serious people here who have asked me questions and not yet received answers. Check your Personal message inbox, Boandlgramer.

MB and other serious people, now I think you understand why I prefer that you send me an e-mail when you have questions.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

I totally agree with Juha: the Reichsverteidigung losses are not as easy. The bomber gunners always shot down significant number of fighters, you must counting it too (and must knowing it), but the serious overclaiming of the US bomber gunners again another problem.

[Christer Bergström]

Csaba, another personal message is going out. Check your inbox.

[Franek Grabowski]

I am avoiding the irritating kids which use this forum as a playground, and I instead send my replies in personal messages to the serious people here who have asked me questions and not yet received answers.

I am still awaiting a reply for my questions.

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/normandy4.htm

Hptm. Karl-Heinz Weber, a veteran with over 500 combat missions from the autumn of 1940, and 136 victories, Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 1: At around 1000 hrs on 7 June 1944, about 10 Bf 109s of III./JG 1, commanded by Hptm. Weber, were en route to the frontlines. (Clark, "Angels Eight", p. 56.) But already northeast of Paris they were attacked from above by 30 Allied fighters (Prien, "JG 1/11", pp. 1008 - 1009), and Weber crashed to his death at Pontoise, north of Paris. Apart from Weber, one more III./JG 1 Bf 109 was shot down in that combat. It is possible that Weber was killed in combat with 24 Mustangs from 306 and 315 squadrons of 133 (Polish) Wing, which claimed to have shot down four Bf 109s in the Dreux area. (David Clark, CD "Daily Data tables of the Normandy Air War Diary", 7 June 1944.) Due to a Polish aviation enthusiast, Weber was shot down in a combat with only four Polish Mustangs, but I have in vain asked to see the source to that claim.

I am curious why do you call me a Polish aviation enthusiast while everybody knows that my name is Franek Grabowski. Also, I would like to know, why do you lie about sources? You perfectly know that I have published my findings in a French journal. See http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1055 for example.
Finally, what is the matter with sources if you cannot quote them properly. Prien/Rodeike mention three Me 109s lost on 7 June 1944!