German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[HGabor]

Either way... For 17 VA, 194 IAD I have data for only after December 25, 1944... So I dunno...

Gabor

[HGabor]

Folks,

and finally: 2Lt. Tóth Lajos, Hungarian Bf 109G ace's soviet claims over Hungary and Austria in 1944-1945:

Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim

14 ….. 13.11.44. Yak-9 ………......Unsure about this, several 5 VA Yak- options
15 ….. 16.11.44. IL-2 ………........Unsure about this, having not enough records for 17 VA for that early date.
16 ….. 05.12.45. Yak-9 ……….....Unsure about this
17 ….. 09.12.44. Yak-9 ……….....Unsure, three 17 VA, 288 IAD Yak options.
18 ….. 04.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5FN, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, - see details in prev. comments.
19 ….. 21.01.45. Yak-9 ………......Unsure, - perhaps Yak-9D, S/N: 19166076
20 ….. 23.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5F, S/N: 39215033, engine: 65033203, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Grehovodov (KIA)
21 ….. 23.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, ml.l-t Abrarov (KIA)
22 ….. 09.03.45. La-7 ……….......Overclaim, found no such soviet loss, probably just damaged. (La-7, ~5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 179 GvIAP)
23 ….. 20.03.45. Yak-9 ………......Found no such permanent loss, probably damaged.
24 ….. 13.04.45. La-7 ……….......La-7, S/N: 45211044, engine: 82132741, tactical white '44', 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, ml.l-t Petr Fedorovich Ivanchenko (KIA) at Austria, Vienna-N, -NW
25 ….. 14.04.45. IL-2 ……….......IL-2m3, S/N: 18872120, engine: 2514148, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, l-t Simanskii - Ionin crew (KIA) at Austria, Stelcendorf(?)-N, 1 km
26 ….. 14.04.45. IL-2 ……….......IL-2m3, S/N: 1880702, engine: 259357, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, crew at Austria, Brodersdorf-NW, 500 m, ml.l-t Satanovskii - Plankin crew

Gabor

[Juha]

Hello Gabor
thanks again for really outstanding inputs!

Juha

[HGabor]

You're welcome!

Some additional info to the prev. Mitchell NJG claims from soviet long-range mission plans/reports (TsAMO archives, Russia):

August 9/10, 1944: Samarica (Croatia) partisan supply-drop mission without landing.
Soviet long-range 14 GvAP DD assigned 7 Mitchells for the mission. Take-off time: 21:30 - 21:35 PM at Kalinovka. Drop zone: Samarica (Croatia):

B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....507, red '4' (S/N: 43-3507, lost at Akasztó, Hungary AFTER supply-drop. Last radio signal received from plane at 01:40 AM saying: crossed line "2" - (Code of the Danube river en route home. R-2600-13 engines: 43-21824 and 43-23496. Pilots: Pchelov in left, Eremeev in right seat.)
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....362, red '5'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....474, red '12' (S/N: 42-32474, lost at Nagymányok, Hungary BEFORE drop. R-2600-13 engines: 43-21653 and 43-21678. Maintenance note: the 5th cylinder of engine no.43-21653 was replaced on July 28, 1944. Plane itself was received by 4 GvAD between May 20-25, 1943. Pilots: Kolyashkin in left, Karakozov in right seat.)

B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....394, red '14'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....588, red '25'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....389, red '22' - ABORTED MISSION!
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....369, red '7'

No.'22' was aborted, six planes flew the mission. Red '4' and '12' was shot down by Fw. Eckart Ulmer, the rest: red '5, 7, 14, 25' returned OK between 04:00-10 AM.

August 10/11, 1944: partisan supply-drop mission without landing near Gagintsi.
Soviet long-range 22 GvAP DD assigned 11 (8+3) Mitchells for the 2 missions. One was lost, the rest returned OK:

B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....247, red '36'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....587, red '37'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....123, red '39'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ...569?, red '34'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....612, red '45' (S/N: 41-30612, lost at Martonos, Hungary. R-2600-13 engines: 42-76955 and 42-76809.)
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '46'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '59'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....375, red '58'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....???, red '56'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....333, red '60'
B-25 Mitchell, No.: ....782, red '*' (Reg. Commander's Red Star marking on tail, - No number sign)

Red '45' was shot down by Ofw. Josef Federle, the rest returned OK. Another, 337 AP DD plane from their 8+3 Mitchells flying this mission received 75 hits in a dogfight near Szolnok, but returned. Note: on August 10/11, 1944 22 GvAP DD and 337 AP DD flew 2-2 different missions to different target zones: 22 GvAP DD: Gagintsi 8 planes (red '36, 39, 45, 46, 59, 58, 56, 60'), Bu Ban'(?) 3 planes (red '*, 71, 83'). 337 AP DD: Bu Ban'(?) 8 planes (red '61, 63, 73, 74, 82, 85, 84, 87'), Lizard(?) 3 planes. 14 GvAP DD flew only to Samarica again, this time with 4 B-25s (red '5, 7, 14 and 22') only.

Gabor

Sources: TsAMO archives, Russia and Royal Hungarian Police - enemy AC crash investigation records. Some confusion in papers with markings!

[HGabor]

Folks,

Some photo-details for modellers/kit builders showing the form/design of the red tactical tail numbers of soviet 5 GvAD DD (14 GvAP DD, 22 GvAP DD and 337 AP DD) B-25 Mitchells, participating the long-range Yugoslav partisan supply-drop missions in 1944. On the far left, see list of 14 GvAP DD planes and pilots, flying the August 9/10, 1944 mission, including Fw. Eckart Ulmer's (8./NJG 6) two Mitchell victims this night over Hungary: B-25s No. '4' and '12'.

(From 14 GvAP DD mission-plan, - TsAMO archives, Russia)
Enjoy!

Gabor

[GMichalski]

many thanks Gabor
kind regards

[HGabor]

Folks,

This is Heinz Ewald's list for Hungary, only in 1945:

Date..........Reported AC................Time.................Real victim

02/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 12.3 ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (Few La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
02/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 12.3 ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (Several Yak losses in the South in the Tata-Bicske area.)
03/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 09.00~ ................ Good question. One La-5F was hit by flak around 9:00 over Esztergom and crashlanded at Fót-S en route home, due to quitting engine. Maybe a quick ambush from below…?
03/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 09.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged - time is wrong with few hrs.
03/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 09.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged - time is wrong with few hrs.
03/01/1945 Jak-3 .................... 14.00~ ................ Yak-3, S/N: 1817 (1829217), 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, gv.ml.l-t Verginskii (WIA, in hospital) / probably shared Yak-3 victory with Hungarian Bf 109 pilot Lója Géza fhdgy. 101/4. Sq. at 13:50 near Bajna. 8 Yak-3s vs. 10 Fw 190 & 12 Bf 109s.
03/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 14.00~ ................ Probably La-5F, S/N: 39214789, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, crashlanded at Tóalmás airfield-SW, ~1,5 km, after a dogfight with a Bf 109 pair in the Bajna area and broke. Pilot unhurt.
04/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 10.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged. 5 La-5 losses in Bicske-Martonvasar area, but too far in the South!
06/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................ Unsure, looks too South. Perhaps L-5FN, S/N: 39212618, 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP on a mission between Esztergom-Komárom?
16/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 11.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss in 5 or 17 VA, probably just damaged.
16/01/1945 Jak-9 .................... 14.00~ ................ Maybe this: Yak-1B, S/N: 40171, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP at Budapest-E, between 16:45-17:55 Moscow time, crashlanded at Kartal after dogfight with Bf 109s. (5 Yak-1s.)
19/01/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 12.00~ ................ Looks a real victory, but unfortunately to many IL-2 options. Most likely IL-2, S/N: 10513, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 995 ShAP, ml.l-t Kobilyatskii crew OK.
20/01/1945 Boston .................... 16.00~ ................ A-20G-40 DO, S/N: 43-21264, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, l-t Gapanovich crew
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................... Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.3 ................... Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 La-5s this day with few hours and mileage difference)
22/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ Perhaps a La-5FN: S/N: 41210109, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP. (4 La-5s this day and here no time was given, so who knows? Returned to airfield after dogfight and broke. 4 La-5 & 5 IL-2 vs. 6 Bf 109s)
30/01/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 13.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (3 La-5s this day with few hours difference)
02/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 15.00~ ................ Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. (4 17 VA, 194 IAD, 56 IAP La-5s, but only on February 3, 1945)
04/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ La-5F, S/N: 39215046, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, ml.l-t Voronov
04/02/1945 LaGG-5 .................... 16.00~ ................ La-5FN, S/N: 39212754, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, ml.l-t Lazarev
01/03/1945 P-51 .................... 13.00± .................... P-51D, S/N: 44-15480, 15 USAAF, 325th FG, 1Lt. Frederick J. Wulfe (O-513279, POW)
08/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 16.00± ................ No idea, found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged. Several IL-2s lost to AAA in area, but few hrs earlier!
11/03/1945 Jak-9 ...................... 15.00± ................. Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged.
13/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 10.00± ................ Looks a real 5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 131 GvShAP IL-2 victory, but not sure which one
13/03/1945 La-5 ....................... 16.00± ................. La-5F, S/N: 39215208, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Radchenko
13/03/1945 La-5 ....................... 16.00± ................. Found no such permanent loss, probably just damaged.
14/03/1945 Il-2mH. .................... 13.00± ................ Looks a real victory, but to many IL-2 options
14/03/1945 Boston .................... 17.00± ................. A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-3643, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, st.l-t Pavlov
16/03/1945 Jak-3 ...................... 17.00± ................ Yak-9D, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, ml.l-t Korotkevich

Gabor

Gabor,

Thanks ! Very interesting information.

You could specify in more detail Soviet losses (La-5): 02.01, 22.01 and 30.01.45 (time battle (Moscow or local), area and reason losses, fate of the pilots).

Best Regards,
Alfred

[HGabor]

Alfred,

On January 2, 1945 the Soviets have permanently lost 4 Lavochkin La-5 fighters, 2-2 from both 5 and 17 VA:

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, La-5FN, Aleksei Ignatevich Roi (OK, next day returned) damaged in dogfight in the Tata area, then belly-landed. 8 La-5 under the command of Kalchenko. – “8 ла-5, вед Кальченко, прикрытие войск в р-не Тата. Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж. Самолет разбит, летчик цел. Вернулся 3.1.45”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, 2ndsquadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39211844, engine: 8212412, tactical ‘44’, yellow nickname: "H - Moскoвский Колхозник”, Maj. Dmitrii Stepanovich Kravtsov (HSU, WIA) near Dág. - “Сбит ИА, тяжело ранен. 12:45 над Будапештом сопровождали Ил-2. Бой с 8 Ме-109. Отсечен от группы и сбит в районе Даг.”– He was shot down by Hungarian Fw 190F-8 (markings: W-521) fighter-bomber pilot, Horváth Sándor szkv. (102/1. squadron) over Dág.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN, S/N: 41210115, tactical ‘15’, ml.l-t Nikolai Lukyanovich Vereshak (OK) – “6 Ла-5 вед ГСС Скляров прикрытие с бомбометанием Будапешт. Потерял группу, израсходовал горючее, вместо аэр То-Алмаш, сел в 3 км ЮВ Кечкемет. Самолет разбит, летчик цел.” – ran out of fuel, plane broken at Kecskemét-SE, 3 km, while escorting 5 VA, 218 BAD Douglas A-20G Boston bombers over Budapest from Debrecen.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP, La-5UTI, a two-seater fighter-trainer version of La-5F, S/N: 39215298, engine: 65021916, tactical ‘98’ on the airfield of Örkény in an accident, 2 KIFA. m-r Gurii Ivanovich Rodionov (KIFA, 1909-1945) and ml.l-t Aleksandr Fedorovich Hramov (KIFA, 1922-1945)

On January 22, 1945 the Soviet 17th Air Army has permanently lost 4 Lavochkin La-5 fighters:

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 41210109, tactical ‘09’, ml.l-t Vasilii Maximovich Boltyan (OK) –crashed on his own airfield after a dogfight with 6 Bf 109Gs: “Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж на свой аэродром. Самолет разбит и сгорел, летчик цел. 4 ла-5 и 5 Ил-2 в район Шарико. Атакованы 6 Ме. Поврежден, сел в районе аэр в саду.”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st squadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39211687, engine: 8212228, tactical ‘87’, st.l-t Georgii Konstantinovich Zolotarskii (POW, liberated, after WWII returned home) – lost on recce. mission over the Gárdony-Börgönd-Sárisáp-Perkáta area near Adony-Pusztaszabolcs: “11:55 с ведомым Планкевичем на разведку в р-н Гардонь, Бергенд, Шаришап и Перката. Через 15 м после взлета Золотарский передал о бое с 8 Ме-109. Сел на вынужденную на вражеской территории, был в конц лагере, вернулся в июне 1945 в СССР.”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, 1st squadron, La-5FN, S/N: 39212516, engine: 8213222, tactical ‘16’, ml.l-t Ivan Danilovich Plankevich (MIA) – lost on recce. mission over the Gárdony-Börgönd-Sárisáp-Perkáta area near Adony-Pusztaszabolcs: “11:55 с ведущим Золотарским на разведку в р-н Гардонь, Бергенд, Шаришап и Перката. Через 15 м после взлета Золотарский передал о бое с 8 Ме-109.”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, La-5F, S/N: 39215251, engine: 65033094, tactical ‘51’, l-t Vasilii Savelevich Svistelnikov (OK) – crashlanded at Pázmánd-E after a dogfight with battle damages. “Подбит ИА, сел на фюзеляж в районе восточнее Пазманд. Самолет разбит, летчик цел.”


On January 30, 1945 the Soviet 17th Air Army has permanently lost 3 Lavochkin La-5FN fighters:

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39211156, engine: 8211268, tactical ‘56’, ml.l-t Mihail Stepanovich Derevnin (KIA, 1923-1945) at Taksony in dogfight with 6 Bf 109Gs in the Kajászó (Szentpéter) -Kisvelence area. “Сбит в воздушном бою, летчик погиб. 12:36 - 13:15 4 Ла-5 вед Цыкин прикрывал в р-не Сентпетр-Кишвеленце. В конце патрулирования встретили 6 Ме-109 Н-1500 м. Деревнин отстал от ведущего, задымил и с пикирования ударился о землю. Калинин сбил Ме. Деревнин найден убитым и похоронен при части. упал в р-не Такшoн”

17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39211768, engine: 8212330, tactical ‘68’, l-t Ilya Martemyanovich Dudarev (MIA, 1923-1945) at Csiribpuszta, Agárd-SE in a dogfight – “Сбит в воздушном бою, летчик выпрыгнул с парашютом над территорией противника. Судьба неизвестна.т 15:05 - 15:45 4 Ла-5 вед Смирнов прикрытие Каполнаш-Ниек, Сентпетр. В районе Граф Н-1500 встретили 4 Ю-88, 6 Ме-109. Цыкин сбил 1 Ме, Дударева сбили, выбросился с парашютом с высоты 4000 м. упал в р-не Чириб”

17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 392124100, engine: 8213166, tactical ‘100’, ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Smirnov (OK) at Madocsa. “Сел на аэродроме по льду выкатился попал в канавую Сломан фюзеляж аэр Мадоча 18:25 разбит, цел”

Times are Moscow locals in reports. Other planes were max. damaged in combat, but not lost. I hope this helps.

Regards,

Gabor

[HGabor]

Folks,

Note, that MANY locations (or at least names) in soviet reports do not exist anymore, so you will never find them in recent maps or Google Earth. Soviet reports were based on VEEERY detailed military maps, showing even farms or farm-centres in the area which sometimes disappeared after the war.

Another issue is the (sometimes politically motivated) name-changes during post-war Communism. One report in my prev. comments eg. mentioned 'Saint-Peter'. (Сентпетр) This was actually 'Kajászószentpéter' (Kayaso-St-Peter), or just Szentpéter (Saint-Peter) in short. During communism 'Saint-Peter' disappeared from the name, so now you find only Kajászó in recent maps, not Szentpeter, just like in original soviet combat report!

Since I have copies of many original soviet 1944-1945 military maps of Hungary, I was able to identify many dogfight and crash locations specified in combat reports, but I am telling you, sometimes it took for a long time...!

...finally: see draft of ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Smirnov's La-5FN (No.392124100) crash-landing at Madocsa airfield, Hungary on January 30, 1945 from his accident investigation file at TsAMO Military archives at Podolsk, Russia. Note short version of his La-5 serial (24100) in report's header.

(The beginning part of usual La-5 serials '3921' meant only factory and AC model: 39 was factory code of the La-5, 21 meant Gorky factory (Factory no.21 in Gorky). Combat reports sometimes used only the 'real' plane-serials, so only the short batch and plane ID part of the digits, like here: 24100.

Gabor

PS: folks, looks like I am running out of attachment space, what to do now...?