2nd TAF - 23/26 Sept 1944

[Henk Welting]

Karl,
84 CSU (you probably intend to say 84 "G"SU - Ground Support Unit) not mentioned in the "Spitfire - The History" (Morgan/Shacklady).

Who has access to the files of 84 GSU ?

Regards,
Henk.

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by Henk Welting

For Chris Thomas:

Hello Chris,

FCL (Franks) Vol.3 pp 100/101:
23.9.44 - 443 Sqn - Stevenson - MJ779 - hit by flak crashlanded NW Nijmegen
26.9.44 - 443 Sqn - Sherwood - MJ779 - Flak hit; crashlanded and burst into flames
We know that Sherwood crashed 26.9.1944 and his aircraft was MJ779 (Crashed near Angeren W of the Pannerdens' Canal).
What's your idea about 23.9.1944 and Stevenson ?

Could you also have a look at http://www.arga-nl.nl ? What's your idea about the Spitfire crashed at Wehl and the engine recovered by the ARGA-Group.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Regards,
Henk.

Chris & Henk !

There is no entry for a 2nd TAF loss at September 23rd 1944, in the "2nd T.A.F. LOG OF CASUALTY CLAIMS, ASSESSMENTS AND LOSSES, sheet No. 96 ". Since this is a primary source and was written some days after the event, I believe, that no serious "loss" event happened this day to SPITFIRE MJ779 and its pilot, if then anything took place.

On September 26th, 1944 this source reports on sheet No. 98 two SPITIRES Cat "E", F/L Patterson and F/O Sherwood (443) as missing. The source doesn't give any specific place, but the wing was operating patrols in the Nijmegen-Arnhem area.

Hope this can bring some light !

All the best,

Horst Weber

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by Henk Welting

Karl,
84 CSU (you probably intend to say 84 "G"SU - Ground Support Unit) not mentioned in the "Spitfire - The History" (Morgan/Shacklady).

Who has access to the files of 84 GSU ?

Regards,
Henk.

Hello Henk,
Yes you are right!! It is indeed 84 GSU !
Regards
Karl

[Allan125]

Originally Posted by karl lusink

Hello Henk,
Yes you are right!! It is indeed 84 GSU !
Regards
Karl

Gentlemen

It is, or was, 84 Group Support Unit - the support unit for No. 84 (Composite) Group, supplying pilots and aircraft when required to the squadrons serving in 84 Group. A similar organisation was set-up for 83 Group.

Checkout page 545 of 2TAF Vol 3 "From the Rhine to Victory"

cheers

Allan

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Horst and Allan for your info.
Chris still may be away from his computer, so let's wait and see what's his idea, especially regarding the Merlin engine recovered near Wehl (NL) by the ARGA boys.
STILL LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY WHO MAY HAVE ACCESS TO THE FILES OF #84 GROUP SUPPORT UNIT.
Regards,
Henk.

[Allan125]

hello Henk

84 Group Support Unit ORB is at the NA Kew

AIR29/823

84 Group Support Unit, Aston Down, Thruxton and Lasham, later No. 84 Group Disbandment Centre, Lasham - covers Feb '44 - Nov '45

No. 83 Group Support Unit Redhill, Bognor, Westhampnett and Dunsfold later No. 83 Group Disbandment Centre Dunsfold . Details of this piece are shown at items level No. 83 Group Support Unit Redhill, Bognor, Westhampnett and Dunsfold later No. 83 Group
Date range: 1944 - 1945.

No. 2 Group Support Unit, Swanton Morley and Fersfield, later No. 2 Group Disbandment Centre Fersfield . Details of this piece are shown at items level No. 2 Group Support Unit, Swanton Morley and Fersfield, later No. 2 Group Disbandment Centre Fersfield
Date range: 1944 - 1945.

cheers

Allan

[Leendert]

To all,

It seems that MJ524 of 84 GSU was damaged on ops (CAC) on 23-9-44, recat E 20-11-44.

A candidate for our mystery Spitfire? I have no idea however about location.

Regards,

Leendert

[Chris Thomas]

Well, I'm back at my computer ... but looking at the above posts I almost wish I wasn't! Thank you Henk and the rest of the boys!

First MJ779. I do not have 443's ORB to hand but from my notes made for Vol2 of 2ndTAF, I found no losses on 23 September 44 but noted Sherwood as missing on 26 September in MJ779. I know the Form 78 for MJ779 gives the date as 23 September but errors on these records are common.

I also think this is has given rise to the supposed crash-landing on this date, where someone has linked the Form 78 serial/date to a name in 443's ORB (my bet that it is 'Stevenson'). Not as stupid as it sounds as there are many instances where the ORB writer fails to mention such minor items as a forced landing in Allied territory. However this one, if it ever happened, was in enemy territory! Which also spoils the theory that the aircraft was recovered and repaired. Even if the location is wrong and it was in Allied territory, 3 days is a bit too quick to recover, repair and reissue a Spit after a wheels-up landing!

As Horst says, there is no loss recorded in the '2nd TAF log...etc' for the 23rd and there is for the 26th; however on its own this does not mean a great deal as there are many omissions in that document - as well as some totally spurious entries. Users beware!

I regret to say I cannot add much to what has been said regarding the mystery Spit on 8 February 45. The theories on PV143/Oulman sound plausible but could only be confirmed by French MoD records (I have no experience of them). An engine change at 84GSU is also plausible but I do not think you will find any note of it in surviving records - the ORB does not go into that sort of detail.

One outside chance to confirm that an engine change took place is if (a big 'if'!)there are Forms OR101 attached to 345 squadron records. 2ndTAF squadrons were required to compile various monthly returns and the OR101 recorded the movement in and out of aircraft into the squadron, including the reason for movement out. On some forms I have seen 'for engine change' although this was usually to an R&SU rather than a GSU. For a handful of units these forms still exist, bound into the back of the ORB but the chance of them being there is less than 10 to 1 ... and then you will be looking at a microfilm copy of a bromide copy (reduced size) of a hand-written original ... and some units did not give every detail required. Ah the joys of research.
CT

[Leendert]

Chris and/or Henk,

Do you have something on MJ524 of 84 GSU? Apparently damaged on operations on 23-9-44 and declared Cat E 20-11-44......

Regards,

Leendert

[paulmcmillan]

Out of interesting, can anyone identify who the pilot 'Stevenson' is