23rd May 1940

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Alex,

The first four pilots & aircraft detached to France on May 14, 1940, were F/Lt John SULLIVAN, with P/Os ‘Slim’ GRASSICK, Willy McKNIGHT, & Stan TURNER. They were attached to Nos.607 & 615 Squadrons then based at Vitry-en-Artois & formed part of the 32 pilots & aircraft sent to the Continent as additional reinforcements.

Two days later, ‘A’ Flight of No.242 Squadron comprising F/Lt Don MILLER, F/O Lorne CHAMBERS, P/Os Marvin BROWN, Arthur DEACON, Don MacQUEEN, & Russell WIENS also left for France. Attached to No.85 Squadron at Lille-Seclin they were one of the ‘additional eight flights’ compromise.

Sources: 242 Squadron The Canadian Years – Hugh Halliday (1981)
Squadron ORBs AIR 27/703, AIR 27/2093, AIR 27/2123 (NA)

[paulmcmillan]

I have few thinking about all this for a few days now.. And I would like to put to bed one theory that has been nagging me...

Could not the incident reported to Linney on 29th May 1940 actually be referring to the incident on 23rd May 1940 and it is just that it took 4 days for this to be realised (and it was written up wrongly at the time) - as he went out in one plane and came back in another? I may of course be barking up the wrong tree completely on this but here are my thoughts.

Firstly.. Linney is quoted as being shot down on 29th May 1940 in Hurricane N2521 'off Dunkirk' at 17.30 hrs in Battle Of France

Norman Franks had this aircraft "lost" on August 16th 1940 when with 43 Sqn (P/O Charles Anthony “Tony” Woods-Scawen) but he had doubts
as he put a ? after it.

In the earlier Battle of Britain Then and Now Woods-Scawen aircraft is listed as N2621 (which Air Britain has lost on 28th July 1941
while with 56 OTU when it dived into ground 6 miles East of Downham Market, Norfolk)

Wright Air wrecks by A.T. Gilliam identifes Woods-Scawen aircraft lost on August 16th 1940 as N3251
See: www.gdtp.freeserve.co.uk/crashlist.pdf


Back to Linney on the 29th May 1940 - He was shot down with F/O William Gerard New (Serial Number 39894) also of 229 Sqn 'over Dunkirk' - But both Law and Linney made it back to their unit but there is no explanation of how they achieved this.. There are references to other pilots rescued by ships etc. Of course they could have just got on a ship at Dunkirk and made it back a few days later.. Does the 229 Sqn ORB make reference of this?

I have WG New reported as 'Wounded in Action' in Air Ministry Casualty Communique No. 39. Published in July 1940, but I do not know if this refers to the incident on 29th May or a later one.

Finally, all references to Linney (such as Men of BoB) only state he was shot down once...

Anyway please feel free to prove me completely wrong on this!

[Alex Smart]

Hello Paul,

Norman Franks FCL vol 1 revised has P3216 for the Woods-Scawen a/c on the 16th August 40. Air Brit has after 16.8.40, A/c repaired and became a Mk.II serial BV174.
Perhaps Norman can tell us what decided him to change from N2521 to P3216 ?

Was there an N3251 ? Air Brit has a break from N3250 to N3264.

You may well be correct in your references to Linney.Can the "Caterpillar Club" help there in any way with regard to how many times a pilot baled ?

There is I see further connection to Strange here with the MSFU. he was in Charge of the Unit.
I have now looked at "Men of the BoB" and see that Linney was posted to Canada as a MSFU back up pilot .
Could it be that Strange thought that this young man had seen enough action and put him in a place where he might be safe? whatever the case Linney saw out the war in Canada and died in 1983.

Alex

[paulmcmillan]

P3216


"On 16 August, the engine of his Hurricane (P3216) is affected by the firing of a defensive bomber, and it is forced to make a forced landing in Selsey. "

This is listed as being flown by Charles Hamilton Upton of 43 Sqn on this date - As this was "A/c repaired and became a Mk.II serial BV174"

http://translate.google.com/translat...LL:en%26sa%3DN

Then I would support this aircraft for this incident, rather than one in which Woods-Scawen actually bailed out from being rebuilt - So as N3251 did not exist then we still have a missing Hurricane

[Alex Smart]

Hi Peter,

To clarify my earlier note re P3216.
The Air Brit P1000- R9999 book has .
P3216
43
Damaged by return fire from a Ju87 and crash landed, Selsey, Sussex, 16.8.40; repaired and cv to Mk.II BV174.

Then

BV174 ex P3216 one of 20 Hurricane IIa's converted during re engining programe by Rolls Royce between October 1940 and March 1941 under contract B116153/40. BV174 went to Malta and its Night fighter Unit.being SoC 2.4.42 no further details. (BA100-BZ999 revised version). "Hurricanes over Malta " has on page 296, BV174/B with 185 Sqdn S/D 2/4/42, con from P3216. And on page 246 "P/O Taffy Andrew's BV174 was badly shot up by a Messerschmitt but although slightly shrapnel wounded in both feet he succeeded in landing at Luqa." So presumably the a/c was either bombed there later that day or was so badly damaged it was SoC that same date.

However,
Also in Hurricanes over Malta" on page 106 (chapter VI)
"At this time 185 Squadron was redesignated as the islands night fighter unit a move made possible by the arrival during the day (1st June ) of yet more reinforcements. Under the code name Operation Rocket, 43 Hurricane II's arrived from the carriers Ark Royal and Furious."

And
On page 130 at the end of the same chapter,
At about this time the Malta Night Fighter Unit (MNFU) was formed at Takali with eight Hurricane IIC's and four IIB's.Annotated "18" which on page 305 has a list of Hurricane serial numbers of those flown during September among which is BV174.

So yet another question opens up with the fate of BV174, was she still active in September of 1940 ?

Aces High vol 1
Has for Upton,
12 July 40 N3267
8 August 40 P3267
13 August 40 V7206
15 August 40 "
16 August 40
18 August 40 P3466
18 August 40 "
4 September 40
In the text it does however say "On 16th August 1940 the engine of his Hurricane, P3216 was hit by return fire and he crash landed at Selsey."
Why this number was not given in the list I have no idea.

Apart from the website you provided a link too, can you provide any other reference to Upton's a/c on the 16th August 40 as being P3216 ? as "Aces High" is my only one so far.

Thanks
Alex

[paulmcmillan]

Alex

My point is not that Upton was in P3216 (I have no more evidence than you), more so that Woods-Scawen could not have been on this aircraft.. Woods-Scawen bailed out of his Hurricane, so that could not have been the one in which he was involved on 16th August 1940

Though now we have at least a possiblity for Upton in P3216 on this date (Aces High) I do not know the source of the info in the web site

You can't bail out of a plane that is later rebuilt !!!

Paul

[paulmcmillan]

Just a small couple of updates

A) WG New not in Men of BoB by Wynn, so probbaly injured on 29th May 1940 or later but before beginning of BoB

B) N3251 - Does not exist and is in a black out block of Spitfires anyway!

C) Sorry to hark on about Woods-Scawen on August 16th 1940, but it did occur to me that if info on May 29th and Linney bailing was wrong (and it referred to the incident of 23rd May) then the aircraft he returned in from France may have been N2521 and that could have been repaired and issued to 43 Sqn only to be lost on 16th August - That is why N2521 is in FCL Version 1 (and as 'N2621' in BOB TaN) people could not explain how an aircraft was lost 'twice'..

[paulmcmillan]

No 43 'Fighting Cocks' Squadron By Andy Saunders

"Plt Off Woods-Scawen had to put Hurricane N2621 down at Parkhurst, on the Isle of Wight, after claiming two Ju87's, and Plt Off Upton crash-landed P3216 near Selsey after uts oil system was holed by return fire from a Ju87"

So now we have another reference to P3216 and the reference to N2621 again - Though now it appears to be a forcelanding.. So the question is did Woods-Scawen bail out or crash land? I note another reference does say his aircraft was written off...

[Andy Saunders]

Mention of 43 Squadron drew my attention back to this thread. I will dig out my files in next few days but the only thing to hand at present is Woods-Scawen's Combat Report for 16.8.40. He describes his aircraft as "written off" in forced landing, but this may well not have been the assessment of the MU inspector of course. He confirms it was a crash landing near Albany Barracks, Parkhurst, which also removed three of his front teeth! I am pretty sure I have transcripts of most of the 43 Sqn Hurricane AM Form 78's, so will unravel all the questions this thread has posed and see what my notes throw up. Wont be able to do it for a few days, though.

[Alex Smart]

Hi,
From "Aces High" vol 1 and 2, re Woods-Scawen.
First vol 2
17 May 40 - N2319
19 May 40 - P2547
Second Vol 1
1 Jun 40 - L1592
8 Aug 40 - P3214
13 Aug 40 - R4102
15 Aug 40 -T4107
16 Aug 40 - N2521
30 Aug 40 - V7420

The above only relate to Claims made.

Another Woods-Scawen is also noted but he was with 85 Sqdn.

Alex