Cobras, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Eastern vs Western front, Franek vs ...

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thank You VERY much Kutcha!

Sorry for Offtop:

289 B-17s claim 32-18-17 Luftwaffe aircraft
177 B-24s claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft

67 P-38s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft
535 P-47s claim 39-6-15 Luftwaffe aircraft
57 P-51s claim 19-1-10 Luftwaffe aircraft

32-18-17 - what does that mean? Killed-Damaged-probably killed?

Is there any way to find out types of aircraft claimed? How many Bf109's, Fw190's, Bf110's and Me410's claimed by USAAF pilots and gunners?

[Kutscha]

Yes Evgeny that is what the numbers mean.

One would have look at the combat reports to find out what a/c. Maybe Bill (drgondog) can help you.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

Yes Evgeny that is what the numbers mean.

One would have look at the combat reports to find out what a/c. Maybe Bill (drgondog) can help you.

Kutscha correct but other different sources are pretty good for actual Awards - but first the 'order'. The Encounter Reports will state the claims which are frequently reduced from Destroyed to Probable or Damaged depending on review of combat film, etc.

The bomber claims were always greatly overstated. The fighter claims were much better matched

I also found that in many cases an award (i.e. "I hit him hard, coolant streaming and he crash landed in a field" would be a 'kill' but if it was say "55%" damaged and repairable, it would not go on the books as destroyed - even if the pilot died of wounds)

The 'Order'

Destroyed-Probable-Damaged for air awards and Destroyed-Damaged for ground awards.

The best sources for actual types are either the USAAF 8th AF Victory Credits Board or Frank Olynyk's lists. A good source is Kent Miller's Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th AF, published by Schiffer.

I have spent a lot of time researching all the above plus the USAF 85 study which thoroughly reviewed 8th AF (and all AF) for 'double entries, awards made w/o film or witness confirmation, etc and reduced the scores accordingly. Frank Olynyk on the other hand picked up many claims that were never processed (like some POW returnees) and researched them to validate and add to his lists.

I continue to review between Dr Olynyk and USAF 85 for my own lists and use Miller to help cross check actual 'type' a/c for 8th AF (only)

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, I would say there is no single breaking point that turned the course of war. The Big Week was not a breaking point itself, it was just a step in the right direction. Another one was airwar for supremacy over Normandy, which resulted in virtual annihilation of several Luftwaffe units to the degree they were unable to recuperate. Still, Luftwaffe existed, but it was existence to cease. Mustang was just only a factor, but a major factor because it was the aircraft able to reach almost every German target and still be competitive with any aircraft Germans could have produced. This was a key factor for the Big Week but also for Normandy.
I must disagree with some comments concerning Luftwaffe though. Most of the problems were based on inadequate training of the personnel, and resulting inability to fight against large formations of aircraft. Also a very poor navigation training, which resulted with many units being unable to arrive to Normandy within expected time. It is noticeable that there were several airmen arriving to units in Normandy, who were trained for about two years but still not capable of flying combat missions. In my opinion, part of the credit for victory should go to the Luftwaffe itself.
And just a few words about this old Soviet myth of second front. It did exist well before Soviets switched sides in Balkans or in Africa. It continued to exist with the invasion of Italy in 1943. It was over Germany, in Burma, New Guinea and Pacific. It was in occupied Europe. This was a World War not without reason.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Franek - pls, not blame on "Soviets". I live in EX-USSR, and my 2 grandfathers were "SOVITES". And they fought hardly in WW II not to became SLAVES OF "HIGHER RACE".

Pls leave "Soviets" to history.

[Franek Grabowski]

Evgenij
Soviet Union attacked my country together with this Higher Race and inflicted similar losses in comparable period of occupation. It enslaved us and several countries of the region. I do remember Soviet occupation forces and I do remember how hard it was to rid them off, and what was left behind.
I understand that the people of Soviet Union had very little choice in regard of their nationality, and that they could have had no choice during the war (still a significant number of ex-Soviet soldiers joined Polish forces during the Polish Campaign). But this should not be used to justify criminal nature of Soviet Union and communism.
Have in mind that among others we discuss aircraft like Thunderbolt and Yakovlev, both created by designers of similar origin. The question arises, why Kartvelli and Seversky could not remain in Russia and to design Thunderbolt there.

[Franek Grabowski]

Replacing other escorts with Mustang all the goals would be achieved. Replacing Mustang with Thunderbolts they would be not.
PS There were plans to produce a long range Spitfire with similarly high range but they were abandoned after Mustang appeared.

[Franek Grabowski]

Igor, Luftwaffe was defeated well before Ploesti was overrun!!!

[drgondog]

Igor - the first official 8th AF attack on the German Oil Industry, as part of a concentrated campaign was on May 12, 1944 - to Brux and Zwickau among other targets.