Search for German Fighter Pilot

[peter monasso]

Hi all !
Thanks to John, Andreas and Karl,
It’s also a mystery to me ! The LB report of 9-5-44 about crash 8-5-44 and the crash site are exactly the same: name farmer, name farmhouse, address etc. and that’s the place where we did excavate and found the little plate with WN 682655. The suggestion for another Fw of II Sturm/JG4 or JG3 is not too bad so is there anyone who has more info about losses of these units ? I checked my files about the other 5 Fw sites of 14-1-45 we excavated in the past but these have other WN’s as follows: Fw 190A-9 205241 Stab/JG3 Bodo Siegfried, Fw 190A-9 205266 13/JG3 Karl Kleinemeier, Fw 190A-8/R2 682218 13/JG3 Otto Ehrhardt, Fw 190 A-8/R2 739412 15/JG3 Harry Götz and Fw 190A-8/R2 682820 14/JG3 Heinz Bake.
So in fact there is not a chance that we switched the little plates. Apart from that the notation of WN 682655 was made immediately after I found it on 21st June 1975. The other Fw 190 sites (9) we examined were not of 14-1-45 and even if they were we didn’t find WN-plates on those occasions so couldn’t have swop these. Maybe someone will find more info on 682655 to solve this mystery in due course. Thank you for your help.
Peter

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by peter monasso

Hi all !
Thanks to John, Andreas and Karl,
It’s also a mystery to me ! The LB report of 9-5-44 about crash 8-5-44 and the crash site are exactly the same: name farmer, name farmhouse, address etc. and that’s the place where we did excavate and found the little plate with WN 682655. The suggestion for another Fw of II Sturm/JG4 or JG3 is not too bad so is there anyone who has more info about losses of these units ? I checked my files about the other 5 Fw sites of 14-1-45 we excavated in the past but these have other WN’s as follows: Fw 190A-9 205241 Stab/JG3 Bodo Siegfried, Fw 190A-9 205266 13/JG3 Karl Kleinemeier, Fw 190A-8/R2 682218 13/JG3 Otto Ehrhardt, Fw 190 A-8/R2 739412 15/JG3 Harry Götz and Fw 190A-8/R2 682820 14/JG3 Heinz Bake.
So in fact there is not a chance that we switched the little plates. Apart from that the notation of WN 682655 was made immediately after I found it on 21st June 1975. The other Fw 190 sites (9) we examined were not of 14-1-45 and even if they were we didn’t find WN-plates on those occasions so couldn’t have swop these. Maybe someone will find more info on 682655 to solve this mystery in due course. Thank you for your help.
Peter

Hello Peter, Andreas and John.
Is it possible that 2 aircraft came down near the farm of KLein Gunnewiek?
One on 08/05/1944 and the other one on 14/01/1945?
The LB report from 9/5/1944 says: "the aircraft was competely destroyed and the wreckage was spread out over a large area".
The combination BMW D engine, MK-108 and MG-151 and Wnr 682655
must be a IV (Sturm)./ JG 3 aircraft!
The Fw 190A8-R2 had the outer MG-151 replaced by a MK-108!
SO they carried one Mk 108 and one MG 151 in each wing!
From 8 a/c of IV./JG 3 there is a "Verlustmeldung".
According to Prien page 285 "demnach wurde der gesammte Verband im Luftkampf abgeschossen"! =12 aircraft!
Heinz Bake sagt: "Die Gruppe 12 Machinen stark, unter Führung of Fw Oscar Boesch.........."und soweit mir bekannt, bis auf Uffz Rolf Bertoche alle abgeschossen"!

Regards
Karl Lusink
ARGA

[John Manrho]

If there are two LB-reports, one for 8.5.1944 and one for 14.1.1945, then we can say there are two aircraft. Karl, can you confirm that?

regards,

John.

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

If there are two LB-reports, one for 8.5.1944 and one for 14.1.1945, then we can say there are two aircraft. Karl, can you confirm that?

regards,

John.

Hello John,
I have found one LB report, from 8.5.44!
Unfortunately I never found a LB report from 14.1.45!

Regards
Karl

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Firstly, I still believe it is too 'easy' to say that this aircraft MUST have been a IV./JG 3 aircraft. I agree that the evidence hints toward one of the Sturm units, but until further proof surface I still think it is wise not to make this assumption.

As I stated in an earlier post, the aircraft closest to the one in question seem to have been operated by the II.(Sturm)/J.G.4, a unit that also operated under the command of Luftwaffenkommando West at the time. I do not think it is unlikely that both these unit can have been operating against the same formations at the same dates.

Further - analyzing the losses of IV./JG 3 on 08.05.1944, we see that there was a loss that fit the description given in the report, namely an aircraft destroyed (summary loss category 4), and a pilot wounded (as given by the summary personnel loss records).

For this pilot and aircraft, a Namentliche Verlustemeldung should exist, and given the number of people frequenting these pages interested in the fighter units, I would surprised if no one has this on record.

I also wonder why there seems to be a total disregard to the more than 200 aircraft this unit lost in aerial combat during the latter part of 1944 and beginning of 1945, besides on the 14.01.1945...

If we agree that this aircraft became available to units sometime in October 1944, you would still have major dates in the unit history like the 12.11.1944 when 12 + 3 aircraft were destroyed/damaged in combat, 02.12.1944 with 10 aircraft damaged or destroyed, 17.12.1944 with 4, 23.12.1944 with 7 and so on and so on

The possibility that we will ever find out is rather slim, especially as I feel that we can rule out aircraft where the pilot were either wounded, killed or went missing (these would turn up in the corresponding NVM's).

You could of course be lucky, and find some thread of evidence, but the likeliness of this is limited.

Turning to the 08.05.1944 again Peter, I think you sadly enough will have to research a lot more than the IV./JG 3 aircraft lost on this date in order to identify the one in the report. According to my records, the Jagdwaffe lost roughly 50 aircraft to enemy action in the west on this date, and now that I feel we can rule out FW 190 682655 as being downed on this date you will have to start with a blank sheet on this one also...

If you need the list of aircraft and units to start your research, let me know.

Regards,
Andreas B

[John Manrho]

Andreas,

I think you are missing the point here....there are two issues;

1) Crash on 8.5.1944. This is confirmed by the LB-report. Crashsite described in report. We don't know who this is. He sustained minor injuries. I have still the feeling this could very well be Fw. Benvenuto Gartmann of 7./JG 1. We only know he crashed "über Hengelo" which is a vague description. Unfortunately I don't have his VLM. However, he flew a Bf 109G-6.

2) Peter Monasso found parts at that site (in 1975 and indicating he doesn't think there is a mix up with another site) of a Fw 190A-8/R2 Werknummer 682655. One thing we know this a/c can not be the crash of 8.5.1944 as this a/c was not manufactured before Nov. 1944.

The only conclusion can be that Fw 190A-8/R2 WNr. 682655 comes from another crash. Karl puts up the theory this could be coming from a different crash very near the 8.5.44 crash, just by coincidence. This is possible.

If we look at the 682655 it is very logical this could be one of the "missing" Fw 190's of 14.1.45. At least seven IV./JG 3 pilots crashed near Lichtenvoorde on 14.1.45 (with one unknown WNr.) and only 5-6 crashsites are 100% known. It could even be that 2-3 more Fw 190's crashed that day near Lichtenvoorde with pilots bailing out, so no VLM.

Furthermore I do not know of any other battle of IV./JG 3 or even more unlikely of II./JG 4 over that area. Andreas, all the battles of IV./JG 3 you list; 2.12.44, 17.12.44, 23.12.44 are all in totally different areas. Except for Bodenplatte II./JG 4 never came near Holland....

Just my two cents...

regards,

John.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, John and all

Sorry for my bad language in the previous post, should have cleaned it up, but had to write it in a hurry between two meetings....

This was more or less my point also, that in order to solve this mystery, the reported loss of 8.5.1944 and the excavated parts of a FW 190 in (probably) Sturmjäger configuration should be treated as two separate incidents.

As you know I am not studying the airwar over the central parts of Europe in full detail, others have a larger interest in that than me, and I find it great that you took the time to share this vital information, namely that the probability that the other Sturm units operated close to Holland was very slim indeed, exactly what was needed.

OK, time for some shut-eye.

Regards,
Andreas B