Battle of Britain Bf109E found in India a few years ago?

[stephen f. polyak]

Here at least is one variation of the fuel filler/octane triangle marker. This too is a yellow center with white border; a hand-applied octane rating of '87' finishes the device. Of course, there were assorted variations on this general theme.

Andy, I'm working on that data plate question . . .

[PeterA]

8...above or below the 5/6?



On Spitfires we know that original instructional stencils get lost in the subsequent refinishing of camouflage and markings.

If the fuel triangle is an original application, and assuming that the 5 was the first numeral applied, is it logical that in positioning and laying out this numeral for spraying, the painter would partially cover the triangle? No pride in workmanship there for the want of just dropping it down a few millimetres.

Would any 109 aficionados have any images where that was the case?

More logical that the 8 was the first application, positioned harmoniously with the triangle and that latterly the whole area including the triangle was sprayed over with top colour and a further numeral 5 applied.

In looking laterally as to why the 8 appears to be the first application but there is no evidence of it being either under the vestiges of 5/6 or protecting over 5/6, I am wondering in the case of the Red 8 that maybe there was a solvent used to remove the majority of it prior the secondary applications.

Just a thought.

PeterA

[Larry Hickey]

Peter et al.

The octane triangle was a factory markings, so it would have been applied before any tactical numbers. I think that the Yellow or ? 8 was next. The real question is whether the 5 or the 6 was next, with the other one of those two being the last application that it carried the day it was shot down. This a/c looks to me like it originally carried the 1939-style markings pattern, which was subsequently updated to the 1940-style, with a mottle added in the later summer of fall of 1940.

Regards,

Larry

[Andy Saunders]

Peter - Just to satisfy curiosity, did you photograph the port front in the firewall area, above wing root and just ahead of cockpit? I recall there was evidence here of the removed data plate - ie rivet holes and witness marks to show original configuration. Would be interesting to compare this to Steve Polyak's data plate images he has posted in another thread.

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

Peter - Just to satisfy curiosity, did you photograph the port front in the firewall area, above wing root and just ahead of cockpit? I recall there was evidence here of the removed data plate - ie rivet holes and witness marks to show original configuration. Would be interesting to compare this to Steve Polyak's data plate images he has posted in another thread.

Andy,

Here?

PeterA

[stephen f. polyak]

Another wonderful picture! It clearly shows the outline where the main plate was (just aft of the firewall, just above the upper wing joint line; it appears as if both rivets remain there. The outline formed by the (green) paint reflects the compact six-sided plate shape I showed earlier. It also seems that the area beneath the plate was painted RLM grey (primer) or was simply unpainted aluminum skin. The airframe top coat camouflage color(s) came later.

Back to the paint work speculation . . . wouldn't a hands on, careful examination of the fuselage numbers (i.e., the associated paint layers) positively reveal the order of application? Is that possible via the owner?

[RolandF]

So in case we assume "8" as being the first tactical number applied to our 109, I´d like to point out the two odd rectangular areas positioned on both fuseage sides just aft of the shadow of "8". On the port side this area begins just at the end of the fuel triangle and is just in the correct position where the narrow early ´39 Balkenkreuze had been positioned before being moved further aft ( one frame exactly) later that year. Oddly the shape of both paint areas remotely resemble two crossed arms of a Balkenkreuz.

If we take this grey area the real position of a Balkenkreuz, then the red disc fits into a scheme of an early 1939 Bf 109E marked as "Red 8 + o" similar to Trautloft´s 109 with a standard RLM 70/71 splinter camo down to the fuselage´s bottom.

The grey colour might have been a primer to cover the obsolete cross before the camo scheme was altered and the fuselage sides were completely sprayed over with RLM 65 with hellblau going far up the fuselage and the new Balkenkreuz moved 1 frame aft.

This would have left enough space to move the new tactical numbers ( be it 5 or 6) further aft, and thus partially cover the (maybe already oversprayed) fuel triangle.

It seems to me also the 2nd Balkenkreuz first was applied as the smaller, narrow variant until this one was replaced by the standard size. Watching the paint traces and paint cracks it would appear to me that according to Wick´s last Bf 109 there had also been the attempt to reduce the white areas by painting the outer parts partially black.

This would go with an intense mottling down the fuselage sides. This would mean this plane, as bad the condition is, in which it is preserved, carries the complete set of early 1939 to late 1940 markings and colours.

I hope the investigation and restoration work will be very carefully to reveal he history of this unicate.

Can somebody unveil the secret of the two letterblocks on both sides of the fuselage´s end? Seems to me one in red letters, the other in white?

Regards

Roland

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

Peter et al.

The octane triangle was a factory markings, so it would have been applied before any tactical numbers. I think that the Yellow or ? 8 was next. The real question is whether the 5 or the 6 was next, with the other one of those two being the last application that it carried the day it was shot down. This a/c looks to me like it originally carried the 1939-style markings pattern, which was subsequently updated to the 1940-style, with a mottle added in the later summer of fall of 1940.

Regards,

Larry

It should be perfectly possible to remove all the original paintcoat, preserving it for the posterity, and to analyse it. It is being done by art preservation institutes, just instead of fabric with Mona Lisa it would be the real skin.