Luftwaffe Myths

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by Csaba Becze

their main efforts and successes were against the Soviet Union while supporting the ground forces.

Indeed, I think we're aware that the Luftwaffe was a 'tactical' force led by incompetent leaders into a total 'strategic' war. I think most commentators agree that the Soviet shifting of their production centres out of range of the Luftwaffe medium bomber force contributed in a fundamental fashion to Soviet victory..or did it not? ...or that the German air defence organisation had everything - a Flak arm and civil defence organisation of millions- except a 'roof'.. By the way have you looked at the (mediocre) Luftwaffe attempts to carry out strategic bombing on Moscow... ?

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Originally Posted by FalkeEins

Indeed, I think we're aware that the Luftwaffe was a 'tactical' force led by incompetent leaders into a total 'strategic' war. I think most commentators agree that the Soviet shifting of their production centres out of range of the Luftwaffe medium bomber force contributed in a fundamental fashion to Soviet victory..or did it not? ...or that the German air defence organisation had everything - a Flak arm and civil defence organisation of millions- except a 'roof'.. By the way have you looked at the (mediocre) Luftwaffe attempts to carry out strategic bombing on Moscow... ?

Even a medicore economist would be able say to Hitler that he is not able to win the parallel war against the Soviet Union and the USA (+GB). It is not a question. The mental problems of the leaders of the Third Reich is one thing, while the performance of the Luftwaffe's bomber arm is another. Without proper aircraft they were not able to make a strategic air war. But it is not their failure. Even if they would have a proper heavy bomber, the result of the war would be the same. The industrial capacity of the Soviet Union was heavily underestimated both by the Third Reich and by the Western Allies. The Luftwaffe would not be able to ruin it with several hundred heavy bombers.
The series of raids against Moscow were not any kind of real strategic bombing campaign, so wrong example. It was again Hitler's brainchild, political decision not against industrial targets and such pointless attacks were just waste of resources (like the baby blitz).

[VtwinVince]

Falke, I understand what you are saying, however, when one considers the incredible odds later in the war against Jagdwaffe pilots, it's amazing that they held out as long as they did. Sure, the RAF could mount large-scale raids against the continent, but one has to take into account the vast resources available to England at that time, both in terms of raw materials and manpower, such as the Commonwealth training plan. Germany had a few poor quality allies, most of whom dropped out of the conflict early on. When I think of my uncle, who was blind in one eye and well into his 40's, flying combat until April, 1945, I can only surmise that he must have been extremely well trained, and perhaps a little lucky. I agree that the leadership of the Luftwaffe was poor at the highest echelon, but they had many outstanding commanders, especially in the field. To simply imply that the German pilots were a bunch of overrated overclaimers is a gross simplification of the truth and a besmirching of the memory of thousands who fought and died bravely.

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

Germany had a few poor quality allies, most of whom dropped out of the conflict early on.

..the original post referred to the Luftwaffe's 'mediocre' performance... My point about Bomber Command was specifically about production, not the validity of 'terror' bombing. Few Allies ?.. by 1941 Germany controlled the entire Continental European coal and steel industry, not to mention the huge French aviation industry, which had just introduced the brilliant D.520 & Amiot 351/354 - and still failed miserably to produce the aircraft that the Luftwaffe required to wage the war on which it's mediocre leaders had embarked, churning out instead thousands of He 177, Me 210/410s etc etc etc..The British on their own were indeed 'out-producing' them for long periods..(Lancaster, Mosquito etc etc) ..but does this really need to be said...

and to answer Remi's point ...

by late 1944 90 Allied divisions were facing 60 German divsions in Western Europe..in the East it was 560 Soviet divisions vs. 240 German...some have argued that the Soviets had won the war by 1944, whether the Anglo-Americans invaded or not...

[Juha]

A bit off the topic, but
FalkeEins
Soviet divisions had appr. ½ of the manpower of German divisions, so comparing the number of divisions doesn’t necessary give right picture, even if many German divisions were badly understrenght.

RT
What You think was wrong with 1., 3. – 7., 12. – 14., 16., 17. and 24.PzDs and PzGrD GD with usually are counted as among the best divisions of WM. All were in the East iduring summer 44

Juha

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Juha

What You think was wrong with 1., 3. – 7., 12. – 14., 16., 17. and 24.PzDs and PzGrD GD with usually are counted as among the best divisions of WM. All were in the East during summer 44.

Juha,

Good point.

We tend to focus on the veteran units that were moved to the west, forgetting about the experienced and crack units that stayed in the East. Besides many of the veteran units pulled out of the East were under strength and in need of replacements.

[RT]

RT
What You think was wrong with 1., 3. – 7., 12. – 14., 16., 17. and 24.PzDs and PzGrD GD with usually are counted as among the best divisions of WM. All were in the East iduring summer 44

....Nd the vast majority of SS-units move to west, idea was just to hold the front, nd wait for a miracle or the Wunderwaffen..



but the Allies were always going to 'out-produce' the Germans since the latter had no means of hitting major Allied production centres -whether that be America or the Urals- surely a major failing of Luftwaffe planning, procurement and strategy..? of course ultimately the Luftwaffe finished the war with the same pre-war types in service (109, He111, Ju 87 etc etc), whereas the Hampdens and Whitleys had long gone..

The brits finish the war with 1946 models like the spifire, nd the beaufighters, Germany with 1918 models like the Ar234 nd Me262

No necessity to go on that way, the strategic-war is merely the ressource-war, without gas, rubber, "special metals" ...the better is to expect that war will not last,
when you hv the good allied-steel you could produce good bombers those with turbo-compressors not using coupled-fighterengines

Remi

[Juha]

Hello RT
not all SSDivs were transferred to West, of the mechanized SSDivs 3. and 5. SSPzDs stayed in East as well as 11.SSPzGrD. And LW’s Fallschirm PzD Hermann Göring was transferred from Italy to East and not to West in July 44
And IMHO SS mechanized divs were not better than Heer’s best mechanized divs, for ex. somehow it was the 2.PzD (not SS) that got farthest during both Mortain and Ardennes counterattacks, not any of SS PzDs .

Juha

[Juha]

Hello Ruy
I don’t entirely agree with You. Britain and Commonwealth stood alone against Germany almost a year from late June 40 onwards. With surface power of Kriegsmarine crippled during Norway campaign there wasn’t much else to try against GB than air-attacks and U-boat campaign. And LW losses during the BoB were a bit under 2000 a/c permanently lost and apr. 3400 flying personnel KIA/POW, to me that doesn’t sound as half-hearted attempt. And those almost straight after substantial losses during the May-June 40 campaign.

Juha

[RT]

Ok Juha not the bestest, although they hv the best material available, but the Ost-front could wait for better days, just a bit more attention was paid than to Italy, or Jugoslawia where half of the country was pretty insecure, keep in mind than germans with forces equal to France+Gr.Britain finished the mai 40 campaign in 5 weeks, nd arrived in front of Moskau in 5 months, by september 44 at that rythm the allies would hv to see the leaves falling down unter den Linden...

Rémi

New thread "Soviet army Myths"

The only way to beat Gr.Britain was at sea..