May 14th 1940 and few little things

[Stig Jarlevik]

Petitpoucet

Good and well, but could you or anyone else please state what the individual Souffan DID find? Since nobody else during all these years have managed to find out what the French actually shot at, I am very interested to know, and so are probably a whole lot of other persons.

Cheers
Stig

[Petitpoucet]

Hi,

He found the losses that match, at the exact time of the french claims. He's writing an article on it, and i cannot say more here. Sorry.

[Bernard]

Good afternoon to all,

What a thread !

I have now been searching about RAF history in the Battle of France for quite a long time now, and am still on it for quite a long time I think. I have been through many documents, and I just want to give my opinion about the "No 142 Squadron Battles affair".

On the 14th of may 1940, No 142 Squadron lost four Battles: K9333, L5517, P2246 and P2333 between 1500 and 1600.

K9333 3 crews returned to their unit.
L5517 crews were all killed.
P2246 3 crews returned to their unit.
P2333 1 crew returned to his squadron, 2 other crews were killed.

7 crews returned to their unit !

I think that if these four Battles had been shot down by French fighters, we all would very clearly know it now !

Don' t you?

Very best regards.

Bernard.

[Many Souffan]

Hello Guys

I go out from my cavern of silence to explain some little things.

I was very pleased when in 2003 the first opus of the: Victoires de l'aviation de chasse française of Arnaud Gillet was printed out. The search was serious maybe to serious because the reading was little hermetic. But it a good thing that book exist...

I was very surprised to read in this book for the 14th may that some French pilots made 4 mistakes in less 25 minutes to shot 4 Battle that they supposed to be 4 Hs 126.

As I worked ( and I work always) about "Cobber" Kain, "Fanny" Orton (73 Sqn.) and the great Jean Demozay (interpreter at this moment to 1 Sqn) I was very close to the AASF and in particular 67 Wing. So for me, it was normal to call to the author to congratulate for his search and to tell him that I had some documents about this affair...


At the phone, the man was so sure of him, so vain, because he knew a german general , Arnaud did not even ask me for my proofs, I was nothing for him. I stayed some seconds with the telephone in the hand before understanding that he had already hung up...

When the last year I bought the battle of France then & now of Peter Cornwall, I have read the same mistake... unfortunatly.

The first thing to say I have always the proofs.

2/ it was really 4 Hs 126

3/ As said Bernard, that the 4 Battle were shot down between 15.00 & 16.00, the 4 Hs 126 between 12.54 & 13.25

4/ How it can possible for 7 or 8 french pilots to make a so big mistakes an 4 times between Battle and Hs 126

5/ and the best of the best the infos between germans reports and French reports incredible; it the same hour, the same place.

6/ Don't forget some of the units of the Hs 126 were attached to the Heeres and their losses were with them.

My next post I will give the proofs.

Thank you very much and sorry for my bad English.

[Many Souffan]

At the date of the 14th may it mist in the excellent book of Peter Cornwall a minimum of 5 Hs 126.

It is on the eve of May 14th that French understood really the intentions of Germans to attack by Sedan according to the German plan Fall Gelb. Everything is set up by the French-British to stop. German crossed the Meuse (Maas). In this May 14th nothing will stop the panzer divisions guided in their advance by the Hs 126.

After the first missions of the Battle at 6.30 am & 7.50, it's time to the Breguet 693 of GBA I & II/54 protected by 2 Goupe de chasse GC II/1 & GC I/1 on Bloch 152 & II/6 on MS406 The first Hs 126B is shot down by Cpt Coiral, Lt Maurin & Sgt Largeau, it belong to 1. (H)/14 attached at 2 Pz division which form with 1 Pz & 10Pz the XIX AOK. mot commanded by Guderian.

The german report (as the French report) stated that the Henschel was shot by French Fighters, fall down at Vrigne au bois after the crew baled out without injuries, in a place already occupied by Germans.

After the Breguet 693, it was time to the old and slow French Bombers Amiot 143 their bombs in the aera of Flize, Sedan, Bazeilles they were protected by 3 groupe de chasse; GC III/7, I/3 & I/10... the mission began at 12.35/40

the suite come...

[Many Souffan]

If the GC I/3 was on the top Cover, the GC III/7 was occupied to protect the slow bombers. And because the slowness the MS 406 of GC III/7 made great circles. At the same time 12.30 13.00 the Panzer divisions had already reached the small village of Chemery.
At 12.54 for the Germans and 12.56 for the French the 1st Hs 126B of 3.(H)/21 attached to XIX AOK Mot of Guderian is fired By Lt Mourier, S/Lt Billoin, Adj/c Bertrand and Adj Littollf. The Henschel force landed behind friendly line >60% damaged, without injuries for the crew as it is written on German report.
At 13.00 over Chemery (the same time for French and Germans)at 1800 m a second HS 126B of 2.(H) 23 attached to the 1 Pz division is poursuied by the seven Morane of III/7 and heavily fired, Sgt/C berthet the last french pilot to fire saw the tail of the Henschel to break. The german report said crew baled out and reached Jehonville, 7km N-O of Bétrix observer (bo) Fw.d. Res. Franz Pörr wounded.
At 13.12 over vendresse Sgt/C Berthet and Cpt Lacombe saw and fired a third Hs 126 which escaped in a cloud when it go out it was fired again by Adj Littollf & Lt Mourier. The Henschel lost some part of his fuselage.
The german report said Vendresse, Hs 126B of 3.(H)/21 attached to XIX. AOK. MOT > 60% damaged forcelanded german side Crew unhurt.
A 4th Hs 126 was seen between Attigny and Sedan. It tried to escape but it was shot down and crashed in a wood near Villers le Tilleul, at 13.25, the coup de grâce come to the Cpt Lacombe but the seven pilots of III/7 shared this victory.
The German report: Villers le tilleul, Hs 126N of 1.(H) 11 attached to 7 PZ panzerdivision of Rommel, attacked by Fighters, force landed, > 60% damaged crew unhurt.

the missions are not finished yet

There will be after at 13.00 the French Leo 451of GB I/12
15.00 25 Battle of 12,142, 226 sqn
15.30 8 Blenheim of 114 & 139 Sqn
and so and so...

Thank you

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dear Many

Many thanks for advising us far better details regarding this combat.
Since you obviously is in the possession of a document nobody else have had access to, I hope you will share it with those serious researchers undertaking a "final" research and hopefully also publication of the air war during 1939 and 1940. Leader of this group is Larry Hickey and the group includes Peter Cornwell too, who also has specialised in this period.
Since it is important to have a document number or a copy of the document scanned, I also suggest you share this with the Gentlemen in question. Since I don't know if you have an original or copy yourself perhaps you should consider to share it with centers in Germany, Britain and/or USA specifically created to take care of these things.

If you look at TOCH and the Luftwaffe and Axis forum you will find Larry Hickey's appeal to the forum under Sticky and thread: The Eagles over Europe (EOE) project. Both Larry and Peter are easy to contact via Private Messages.

Cheers
Stig
PS: Bernard, your e-mail is of no value to the discussion, contrary to Many's

[Bernard]

Hi Stig,

I indeed do agree with your remark regarding to the value of my post, for I have not given any reference to any document. If you check my other posts, you'll see that I always usually do and I haven't in this case for private and justified reasons.

Anyway on the other side you have to honestly admit that if seven RAF crews from 4 different aircraft of the same Squadron had been shot down by friendly fire and returned to their unit, as I said it would be well known.

AIR 35 files are very numerous.

Best regards.

Bernard.

[arnaud]

Fairey Battle of 142 Sqn shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 :

What evidence ?

The Henschel 126 losses list is A LIE, I repeat A LIE, until I see the copy of this original document !

So P L E A SE........................ Sir Many Soufflan would you be kind enough to give us a copy of your fantastic and unbelievable documents you mentioned.

I am so sorry, but I don't believe what you wrote until I have in my hand those documents.... Then I will shut up... I promise...

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dear Bernhard

Let's first clarify my own position. I am an interested amateur "historian", and certainly no scholar. I have never claimed to be anything like that and never will. But I am on the other hand no idiot either, although my wife might not sign that statement every day...

There are a lot of individuals both on this site and off, who although they may not claim to be scholars either, have a far better dedication to the subject, not to mention an incredible experience in researching archives in all relevant states involved with WW 2. From what they write and their most sensible inputs on this website, they are certainly no idiots either.

I have not researched any AIR 35 files, nor any other files in those relevant places in England, France, Germany, Italy, Japan or USA. I am not sure if you have either, but if you DO have found any relevant combat reports from surviving crewmembers of that day, I feel it is much better you say so instead of just making hints. However I am rather confident that we have many British highly experienced individuals who already have researched Kew from rooftop to cellar, and since they seems to have come up short handed, why don't you tell us where they should look?

Quite honestly I don't understand your position in this converation. Are you in possession of this obviously highly prized document which so far only Many seems to have seen? I do believe Many is capable of speaking for himself and advise those relevant individuals about his find and also give away all suitable evidence he has. Normally researchers and scholars share their finds since they usually either have access to the same storage facilities and archeological reports. (This is not to say they share the same theories... ) So far I have never come across any scholar or researcher who has refused to show his evidence for any new sensational find neither in Egypt, Greece nor Rome (I happen to be quite interested in Classic History as well), so at this stage I cannot see why Many should withhold any documentary evidence. I can understand that he does not want to publish the document on the internet, but as I stated I think he should share this document with other dedicated researchers who just like himself wants to get to the bottom of each anomaly during this period.

Since Many has not answered my last input, perhaps he is still thinking about this. It would be nice if he advised what he would do, because until he does it is just his writings we have and that is something that no scholarly world can accept.

Cheers
Stig