May 14th 1940 and few little things

[arnaud]

Bonjour à tous les internauts,

J’aimerai que vous soyez tous témoins des difficultés que je rencontre en essayant d’obtenir les côtes et les copies de documents que Monsieur Many Soufflan dit avoir en sa possession.

Lors de la publication de notre premier tome sur les Victoires de l’aviation de chasse française, nous avons étudié avec intérêt le combat aérien du groupe III/7, le 14 mai 1940, avec pour résultat la revendication de quatre Henschel 126 dont trois percutent violemment le sol : version officielle de l’armée de l’air renforcée, en 2001, par Roger Pierre qui donne des précisions sur ces avions soi-disant abattus par l’unité française correspondant à la minute près aux revendications des pilotes français :
« - un Henschel 126 de la 1.(H)/11, équipage sauf, posé à Villers-le-Tilleul.
- un Henschel 126 de la 3.(H)/21, équipage sauf, posé dans ses lignes à 12.54.
- un Henschel 126 de la 3.(H)/21, équipage sauf, posé dans ses lignes à Vendresse.
- un Henschel 126 de la 2.(H)/23, Feldwebel Pörr (lire Dörr), posé à Chémery à 13.00. »
En 2009, la revue Avions (Lela Presse) reprend cette obscure liste.

Nous avons interrogé les auteurs. Roger Pierre n’a pas répondu. La revue Avions nous renvoie à Many Soufflan qui refuse de communiquer ses sources… !?!... !?!... !?!...

Nous considérons cette liste des pertes comme fort douteuse pour de multiples raisons et demandons à avoir une copie de ces documents…

Nous avons retrouvé au Bundesarchiv de nouveaux éléments confirmant ces méprises dont le témoignage d’un officier allemand de l’armée de terre qui a assisté à ce combat entre Chémery et Maisoncelle. Nous donnerons nos sources dans un petit fascicule d’environ 80 pages à paraître cette année.

Je demande à Monsieur Many Soufflan, en prenant les internautes d’aérostories pour témoin, de bien vouloir me communiquer les documents d’archives prouvant la perte de ces Henschel 126.

Aéronautiquement vôtre


Arnaud Gillet


P.S. : Il s’agit ici d’un communiqué qui a pour seul et unique but d’obtenir ces documents d’archive. Pour ceux qui désire discuter de ce combat, veuillez créer une page de dialogue.

[Franek Grabowski]

Stig
Many, whom I know personally, is an author, who writes under his own name, and has some projects under way. I assume, Bernard works on another project related to French Campaign. They do that for their own glory (there are no financial gains on the market), and it is understandable that they may not want to share too much, before their own texts are published. We are not living on honest land, so if they do not want to share documents before the date, it will be perfectly understandable. It is their choice.
That said, I cannot understand what the comment 'serious researchers' is supposed to mean? If that anybody else is a not-serious researcher, then perhaps someone should reconsider presence on this forum? Also a '"final" research' reminds me a final solution. The latter failed, and the former no doubts will, as there are too many unturned stones, not only in Kew.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Franek

You are a Master of knitpicking on words and taking things out of their context for nothing. Congratulations to feel so at home with the British language that you never need to consider what you say! Let me just say to you that my e-mails on this site are not intended to be measured on a golden scale or be kept for posterity!! As already stated to Bernard, I don't understand your position in this discussion either. Are you in possession of the document as well or why are you jumping in and answer for Many? Again I believe he is capable of stating his own mind and why he so far does not want to state the obvious, his sources. Since he has already published the answers to what his document(s) state happened during that day, I fail to understand what use he has to keep the document itself secret! Writing new books? It then must be an incredible piece of document to contain so much new material that it warrants such secrecy, but again I believe Many can answer for himself regarding that.
Cheers
Stig
PS: No I don't either believe in any final solution nor a final book about any military campaign, and that is also why I stated "final" in brackets.
For most gentlemen on this list it should by now be very obvious that I am neither a researcher nor serious researcher, but if you have failed to understand that, now you know.... My meaning is that a serious researcher states his/her sources, a researcher does not!

[Franek Grabowski]

Stig
I do not understand your arrogance either. There was nothing in Bernard's posts, that deserved your offensive comments. Also, nothing can justify your disrespectful demand to hand over documents found by Many, especially on the site, where original sources are rarely identified.
That said, considering dishonesty present also on this board, I can imagine, that someone may would not want to reveal documents or their source. This because a complete file may contain more unpublished facts, the latter making a published work more valuable. No aggressive approach can change facts. That said, you obviously have not seen any book of 'serious researchers' you refer to, as they are devoid of any mention of sources!

[Many Souffan]

Hello Stig.
Before wednesday, your birthday I think, I will answer You.

Hello Franek
Thank you, you said what I thought, Don't worry, I will say an explanation

Hello Petitpoucet & Bernard
Thank you again

Arnaud
I read again the part of your book of 14th may and I am very surprised, your book is printed out since 2003, but you never have written your sources, so I wait for your source first, secondly, If you have made a good research in AIR 27, 26, & 35, and if you have read the excellent book of Brian, Twelve days in may, you will understand that famous 4 Battle of 142 sqn. began their mission at 15.00 and at this date the french and british hours were the same.

You have discredited your work because you are not serious, because you have written with so vulgarity against me, but for me the most important you have also discredited the work of Peter Cornwall because you have given him wrong infos. And please be correct with this forum, write in English even it is bad, it will be more respectful for everyone.

[lingodog]

Gentlemen please! We are all seekers of wisdom and truth on this forum. Surely we can debate in a civilised manner without resorting to even the slightest form of unpleasantness?

[arnaud]

Mr Many Soufflan,

Toutes ces messages n'ont qu'un seul et unique but qui est d'avoir la preuve, les internautes comme témoins, que vous avez refusé de donner les côtes et les documents concernant la liste des pertes de vos Henschel 126. C'est moins couteux de passer par internet que d'envoyer une lettre avec accusé réception.

Mais votre refus n'est pas très gênant... La liste des pertes que vous donnez ne correspond pas aux revendications du groupe de chasse III/7 pour de nombreuses raisons que j'expliquerai dans le petit volume à paraître en français et en anglais.

En tous les cas, je tiens à vous remercier chaleureusement. Vos attaques m'ont obligées à revoir dans le détail ce combat. Vous êtes à l'origine des difficiles découvertes de cette mission du groupe III/7 qui est bel et bien "la pire mission de la chasse française" (The worst french fighter mission ever)...

Ne vous inquiétez pas, je ne citerai pas votre nom ni ceux qui ont publié votre liste dans le petit ouvrage. Sachez aussi que je n'aime pas communiquer ainsi sur Internet en public. J'y suis obligé pour des moyens de preuve. C'est tout à fait exceptionnel...

Veuillez accepter, Monsieur Soufflan, mes sincères salutations.

[Ruy Horta]

Messieurs,

This is a very interesting subject, part of a fascinating campaign that deserves more attention than it usually gets.

The tone of debate might be more a matter of culture than sentiment, at least I hope it is.

Please think of this forum as a gentlemen's club, if one disagrees take a breath, if need be a sip of some fine drink, and continue the debate. If all fails just think you'll have to end the discussion in amical disagreement.

"Veuillez accepter mes sincères salutations" even in my limited french reads like the right tone!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks You Many

I look forward to it

Cheers
Stig

[Many Souffan]

Happy birthday Stig 58, in 3 days I will have 56, we are of the same generation, maybe you will understand... It's the beginning of wisdom...


Before to begin, I would like to tell you a short story, he will open to your mind how I am, How I work, How I think the term Searcher.
When I began my researches, I always wanted to go to a known searcher or to an old pilot, I always did and I do by myself the researches the human contact is very important for me. So When I began to search, I met in his country an eminent searcher (since he had became a friend) and during the presentations, he said something that I always thought for me. He said he was a lone wolf. I think deeply, it is the best definition for a searcher, naturally, this searcher can have many friends who are also searchers and everyone is a lone wolf. The second think you must be in trust of the other searcher who asks you some infos. As Franek said we are not living on a honest land. I am suspicious by nature. Another story which explains what I have just said. It was ten years ago, I was in Prague to meet the most famous Czech searcher for some help. I show him some photos of Slovak Pilots, first hand photos because for the father of a slovak friend he told me to write something. this famous searcher was very surprised and he told me if it was possible to have copies. Yes of Course, but for one condition to wait I publish them first. Without my permission he published them 2 years after with my credits but not my permission. You believe me, again today it is a deep wound for me...

When at my beginnings Jochen Prien, Chris Shore, Brian Cull, Ferdinando d’Amico, Jean-Yves Lorant and sorry if I forget so others who helped me, I was able also to understand they didn’t want to help me. It is always a private choice.

We must know there are many different kinds of searchers, and many of them made researches for themselves, for a person of their family, for the passion, for the fun, without thinking to publish. Sorry if you find that I am proud, I make researches to publish, and I will publish again and again. So, As said my Friend Franek why I must give my infos if I didn’t publish yet, You spent money, time. You must know you always spent more money that you can win with an article or a book.

To come to the 14th may 1940, the infos are always in Bundesarchiv but not with Luftwaffe but with the Heeres, and I don’t know the references, because the German searcher who had given to me these infos wanted to stay anonymous, but his work is known, his names is on the cover on some best sellers that everyone know. When he began this work, there was the Berlin wall yet. So I respect what he asks to me to not give his name.

To Arnaud, it is an honor to be humble if you made a mistake, to say it, and your mistake came that it was not for you the same hour, but in the facts French MS406 & Hs 126 were at the same place & at the same hour. Seven men from the 4 Battle of the 142 Sqn. returned to their base, and in their reports never they said there were attacked by French Morane. Take time, go to Kew and have a look in AIR 27, AIR 26, AIR 35, Go to the Service Historique de la Défense, take a look on the file of III/7. Do you know there are also the diary of Cdt Crémont the Chief of the GC III/ 7 there are also private diaries of some French Pilotswho were involved in this melee, I have copies of them... The truth is so evident.

When I have documents, photos, I donate to museums, I don’t keep for myself, only when it is a gift from the pilot himself, I am not a collector, and when I have published, I help who asks me to help him. As I help without problem if it is not my subject. I always enjoyed when someone find new materials about my subjects I have written. Sometimes is difficult to reach the truth...

Hope that I answer you Stig ... and sorry again for my bad English.