Bomber Aces

[Smudger Smith]

Dear Jim,



Read with interest your post, however I feel that the term ‘ace’ is inappropriate when describing experienced Bomber Command aircrew.



The majority of two or three tour airman where unknowns, a select few became war-time household names, the likes of Gibson, Cheshire, etc many more ordinary aircrews continued to operated within their respected groups with little or no recognition other from those they served with. An example is that of Wing Commander Peter Francis Dunham RAFVR. This officer began his first tour in 1940 as an airgunner, his second tour as an Observer his third as a pilot, he was killed while c/o of No.90 Squadron. I for one would not consider this extremely brave and courage’s officer an ‘ace’. I personally feel the term ‘ace’ is better suited when describing the Fighter boy’s,


Cheers

Smudger

[Jim Oxley]

Fair enough, I'll accept that. Dunham is indeed an excellent example of a crew member doing multiple tours. And he would have been included as one of the couple of thousand that I referred to above.

I find it really odd though that it wasn't a practice that the Americans were keen to emulate. They seemed to have had a totally different mind set to the war. And I'm wondering what the contributing factors may have been.

Was it...
a) partly due to the excessive manpower that the Americans poccessed, negating the need for multiply tours
b) perhaps coming late to the War, and fighting it many thousands of miles from their own land, they didn't quite have the committment that existed in both the British and German air forces
c) or was it that they had a more workman like approach to the war i.e. do the job and go home.

I find the whole thing very interesting.

[jhor99]

On July 5 1943, 28 B17s from the 99th Bomb Group, had as it's target Gerbini airfield, pre Sicily invasion. They destroyed about 20 aircraft on the ground, and they were attacked by over 100 enemy fighters, 3 of 6 B17s in my sqdn were shot down, 49 enemy fighters were shot down, plus several probables. One waist gunner Sgt was credited with shooting down 7 enemy planes. At a ceremony several days later, 2 Generals awarded him some medals, promoted him to 2nd Lt, shlpped him out and declared him an ace.

[Smudger Smith]

Jules,I find it un-believable that even today the over claiming of American gunners is still believed and pumped out. We are all aware of the tremendous job they did, but if the claims were anything near correct the US gunners would have single-handedly destroyed the German day fighter arm.Don’t believe a word of it personally. !PS : Before all the Flak, I AM NOT ANTI AMERICAN. !!!!

[Jon]

I must agree with Smudger on this and like him want to say i am not Anti American and do appreciate all they did in the war, but far too much evidence shows that their was massive overclaiming by US gunners, obviously due to many gunners shooting at a single fighter and if it was hit they all claimed it, also i assume any erratic flying to escape by the Luftwaffe would be classed as "shot down" and this together with any fighter diving hard and fast for home after a firing pass would also be another kill !!!
You simply can't argue with facts and it would be nice to see the real Luftwaffe losses for this raid in particular and, i would place a safe bet that they lost less than 7 fighters to gunners during the whole attack.

[Franek Grabowski]

Mates, Mr Horowitz wrote about credited claims! If you want we may discuss excessive (or ridiculous to some) RFC/RNS claims!
One note, comparing German and Allied bomber airmen, one should take care of time difference between average sortie. I suppose the former took about 2 hours, while the latter perhaps 6, so no direct comparison.
Concerning multi-tour flyers, well, is there any list of them? A number of Polish airmen flew 3 tours and some of them even 4. I am not sure if only pilots or other aircrew were included in the stats (one of them says only 65 pilots finished two operational tours).

[Smudger Smith]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Mates, Mr Horowitz wrote about credited claims! If you want we may discuss excessive (or ridiculous to some) RFC/RNS claims!
One note, comparing German and Allied bomber airmen, one should take care of time difference between average sortie. I suppose the former took about 2 hours, while the latter perhaps 6, so no direct comparison.
Concerning multi-tour flyers, well, is there any list of them? A number of Polish airmen flew 3 tours and some of them even 4. I am not sure if only pilots or other aircrew were included in the stats (one of them says only 65 pilots finished two operational tours).

Franek,If the US Bomber fleets ‘did’ inflict such grievous losses on the German day fighters, why was there such a almighty rush to introduce long range fighter escorts, surely at the rate the US gunners were destroying the German fighters in the air, and their precision pickle barrel bombing of selected German aircraft factories on the ground, there would not have been nothing left for the fighter jocks.Regardless of claims or credited ‘kills’ the US like the RAF in the Battle of Britain over claimed, (B of B is an example) the difference is that we accept that the RAF over claimed and we try to report the known facts, the American of the other hand (Who I must point out I have the greatest respect for and am proud to say have amongst my closest friends) continue to pump-out the same old rubbish. I am sure that a simple check on Tony Woods great site will confirm that the Germans did not loss 49 fighters shot down during this encounter.I must continue to point out I am not anti US, or am I trying to belittle their tremendous courage and sacrifice in the air-war over Europe. What I am is feed-up with the continuing use of over inflated and exaggerated claims continually being used to prove a point were the US Airforce is concerned. Does it really matter if they shot down 4 or 49 German fighters on this raid? What matters is that they served, fought and died for a cause, would we think any less of them if they only shot down 4 fighters, I think not. All I ask for in return is give me facts not fiction.I am wait the shelling. !!!