Why did 10./JG 2 bomb a school in Catford?

[tcolvin]

Nick,

We know that,
a) the XX Committee believed (in January 1943) that CARELESS was "thus able to instil into the Germans a wholesome fear of the strength of our passive defences" (Masterman), and
b) "the Luftwaffe High Command now (April 1943) persisted in the belief that daylight Jabo missions had not achieved the desired effect and therefore the vast majority of SKG 10 would continue to be trained for nocturnal attacks, to the incredulity of Jabo pilots" (Goss).

To answer your question about how this wholesome fear was assessed, we would need to see the detail in M.I. 5 records on which Masterman based his statement. That record would consist of Enigma intercepts since, according to Masterman, that was how the XX Committee checked the effect of its activities on the Germans.

Chris Goss is one obvious person to study M.I.5 records, and to find out whether XX was the source of the German High Command's developed sense of failure.
You are another obvious person.

You do not, I assume, have a third theory why the daylight Jabo missions were abandoned? Chris Goss believes it was probably due to "incomplete intelligence", which is not a million miles from my hypothesis that it was probably due to XX deception.

The RAF would have won if they had wiped out the Jabo force attacking London, because thereby they would have instilled into the German High Command a wholesome fear of the strength of the "active" defences.
Since, however, that proved to be beyond the capability of the RAF, then the only other way of getting the daylight Jabo attacks to stop, was XX.

Tony

[Brian Bines]

Had not most of the Jabo raids been targeted against coastal targets on a hit and run basis. The switch to night attacks I thought was to make London the target again, being in answer to RAF raids on Berlin etc.

[Maximowitz]

Tcolvin will believe that black was white just to make his theory true. There really is no evidence at all.

[tcolvin]

News is out today that it is possible for reputable historians and/or those with a personal interest to access M.I.5 files.

In today's Guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...-burns-mi5-spy - Terry Burns writes that he has seen M.I.5's personal file on his father; "Only in February last year did the wall of Whitehall silence crack. An unexpected phone call from a friendly source informed me that I could look at personal files on my father held in secret by MI5 for 67 years."

I would therefore strongly recommend that Chris and Nick ask M.I.5 for permission to see all of the files about the Double Cross System as it affected the Luftwaffe.

Now, at last, questions about the abandonment of Tip and run and about the Catford Bombing will hopefully be answered fully and, maybe, finally.

And no doubt a new light will be shone on other events relating to the air war.

Tony

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by tcolvin

I would therefore strongly recommend that Chris and Nick ask M.I.5 for permission to see all of the files about the Double Cross System as it affected the Luftwaffe.
Tony

Why us and not you?

[Peter Cornwell]

Nick,

Presumably because Mr Colvin rightly suspects that his credentials as a 'reputable historian' (whatever that means) may be questioned ? And if that be so, on the evidence of this thread, I am persuaded to agree with him.

[John Vasco]

The full flowering of the fashion for Jabo occurred in early 1943.
Bollocks! It was in full flower during the Battle of Britain in 1940. Go read about a certain unit.


The next development was Goering's face-saving order that fighters fitted with bomb-racks be used to replace day bombers over England.
Bollocks! A certain fighter-bomber unit worked alongside day bomber units during the Battle of Britain. Go check out the attack on shipping in the Thames Estuary around mid-day, 11th August 1940, or the first raid on Manston on 12th August 1940. I do believe a certain fighter-bomber unit AND a standard day bomber unit took part. I also do believe that the attack on RDF/radar stations on 12th August was carried out by a mix of a certain fighter-bomber unit (Dover, Rye, Pevensey & Dunkirk) and a standard day bomber unit (Ventnor). Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this.


The Jabo was therefore the V0, to be replaced by the V1 and V2.
Well blow me down! In all my discussions with former members of certain fighter-bomber units, not one mentioned that they were part of a V-0 force... Shit, Man, I must have missed something.


Must go check my research papers from the last 30 years for the elusive V-0 information. Apart from that, I've got nothing else to say.

[tcolvin]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Why us and not you?

It's not my expertise, Nick.
But it is yours.

For 'reputable' read 'published' historian, Peter.

Tony

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by tcolvin

For 'reputable' read 'published' historian, Peter.

Tony

They are two different things...


And how about answering my points in my post #47?

[John Beaman]

Guys, a most interesting and challanging thread. Let's make sure we keep the discussion on the facts, theories, etc., NOT personal comments.