Luftwaffe Myths

[CJE]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

There seems to be an assumption underlying many of the above posts that (a) Hitler and (b) Nazi policy were either rational or at least followed a consistent internal logic.

There were two, however: the Drang nach Osten which pushed Hitler to invade Russia and the will to kill Jews at any cost.
WW2 was an ideological war, but many people disregard this fact.

[Franek Grabowski]

Gents, please. I just wanted to note that the theory of preemptive attack is ignored and to learn why. Certainly, discussion of all the related issue are far of the scope of the thread. Let's return eg. to strategic planning, that was made already before the war.

[Jan Gazda]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Frankly I think Mr. Tooze is out of his mind. I mean - the industrial output figures, ie. steel, aluminium etc. production, production rate of aircraft and armaments are there for all to see... its quite simply a fact that Germany was the World's second largest industrial power after the US. Steel production, the usual scale of industrialization at the time for example exceeded that of the UK's and USSR's combined.

Wheter this was enough for the ambitions of its leaders between 1933-45 is another question, answered by history already.

I do not know Tooze´s Wages of Destruction but I have read his Statistics and the German State 1900-1945: The Making of Modern Economic Knowledge and it is brilliant (although a little bit boring and unpenetrable for non-economists I am afraid) so if this guy states something I think he should be taken seriously because he obviously knows what he´s talking about..

Jan

[Maximowitz]

After reading through this highly entertaining thread I have come to one conclusion. If all of you had been in charge of policy making for the Luftwaffe the result would have been exactly the same. None of you can agree on anything.

[edwest]

Gentlemen,


In the book IG Farben by Richard Sasuly, chief of financial intelligence and liaison of the Finance Division of [the] United States Military Government (dated 1947), he shows that those who put Hitler into power were the ones pulling the strings so to speak. These were the financial people and industrialists, among which IG Farben was the 4th largest company in the world. And there was also the Hermann Goering Werke.

England may have missed an invasion by Germany, but the V-1s and V-2s flew without pilots that could not be replaced.

I sometimes think some people believe Hitler financed the war out of his pocket. But in 1944, with the reverses in Russia and the Anglo-American landings in Normandy, a decision was made. From the book, "They waited as long as they did because up till July, 1944, they had been satisfied with Hitler." But the assassination attempt failed.

Also from the book: "And the Strategic Bombing Survey demonstrated conclusively that the bulk of German capacity to produce was intact. In spite of all the damage, German industrial capacity was greater at the end of the war than at the beginning. The greatest single bar to production was the breakdown of all transportation; and this had largely been brought about by the Germans when they blew up their own bridges."



Ed

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by edwest

In spite of all the damage, German industrial capacity was greater at the end of the war than at the beginning.

As Tooze argues this was because the Germans were starting from a low point for waging war, in GDP terms only 60% of British/French combined output in the mid-to-late 30s

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by edwest

In the book IG Farben by Richard Sasuly, chief of financial intelligence and liaison of the Finance Division of [the] United States Military Government (dated 1947), he shows that those who put Hitler into power were the ones pulling the strings so to speak. These were the financial people and industrialists, among which IG Farben was the 4th largest company in the world. And there was also the Hermann Goering Werke.

Quite an irony is that IG Farben was formed by a well known financial family of Warburgs, which was quite active on political scenes, supporting various movements.
It is also worth to note, that the German power was largely supported by robbing of occupied countries of virtually anything, gold, raw materials, workforce, etc. Germany never compensated for this due to the Cold War, this being one of the reasons it is one of the leading economies in the world.

I sometimes think some people believe Hitler financed the war out of his pocket. But in 1944, with the reverses in Russia and the Anglo-American landings in Normandy, a decision was made. From the book, "They waited as long as they did because up till July, 1944, they had been satisfied with Hitler." But the assassination attempt failed.

The assassination never ceases to amaze me, it was so amateurish. Nonetheless it is true that political goals of assassins targeted against Hitler but not his achievements. They just wanted separate truce on the West and to continue old policy on the East.

Also from the book: "And the Strategic Bombing Survey demonstrated conclusively that the bulk of German capacity to produce was intact. In spite of all the damage, German industrial capacity was greater at the end of the war than at the beginning. The greatest single bar to production was the breakdown of all transportation; and this had largely been brought about by the Germans when they blew up their own bridges."

Had Allied bombing campaign no effect on the German industry, they would not invest considerable amount of money and workforce into building underground factories, would not they? This recalls me very well a Soviet propaganda of the past. Everything that was not available in the Soviet Union was described as useless, be it strategic bomber force or aircraft carriers.

[edwest]

Franek,



My own parents became eligible for post-War compensation from Germany as they were forced laborers. My mother told me about seeing entire factories dismantled for shipment out of Germany by the Allies. Looted art treasures were returned. Even Allied Intelligence was involved in tracking some of it down. Billions of dollars in German patents were simply taken as spoils of war by the Americans, directly harming Germany's immediate post-war competitiveness. Your claims are without foundation.



Regards,
Ed

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Had Allied bombing campaign no effect on the German industry, they would not invest considerable amount of money and workforce into building underground factories, would not they? This recalls me very well a Soviet propaganda of the past. Everything that was not available in the Soviet Union was described as useless, be it strategic bomber force or aircraft carriers.

I quite agree with you RE: this point; the transportation 'paralysis' caused by blowing up their own bridges?...Eh & I thought it was because EVERYTHING that moved by road, rail or river would get the bombed or strafed by allied Tac Air or given 'the treatment' by the Heavies, along with the power generating industry...

nm

[Franek Grabowski]

No, Ed, not all art treasures were returned, and for example, the German government still refuses to cooperate with Poland on this matter. Only spectacular treasures were returned.
In regard of factories, perhaps some high technology works were moved, but the West did not need tools, they have had enough of their own. The situation was different in the East, where Soviet moved whole factories (with workers), but this stopped within few years, and the situation vastly improved, on both sides, as both Soviets and Americans feared, that 'their Germans' will twist sides. Germany indeed lost patent rights, but not inventions themselves, and were quite competitive if not only because lower workmanship costs or due to reduced military expenditures. Last but not least, they got plenty of help due to Marshall Plan. Remaining countries were forced to pay for their own costs of war (Britain only recently paid for Lend-Lease), and never got any proper compensation, this is especially true for the Eastern Europe.
All in all, certainly Germany suffered some losses, but in general their balance was quite in favour. Mind you, losses of Warsaw alone were estimated at at least $40,000,000,000, this without human losses or private property, and never got a dime of refund.