Search for German Fighter Pilot

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

Werknummer 682655 is from a production block that, according to Rodeike's Fw 190 book, was produced in Nov.-Dec. 1944. Therefore this can not be a crash from 8.5.1944. It seems to me that 14.1.1945 is more likely. Could very well be a IV./JG 3 a/c, and by coincidence, Oskar Boesch was shot down that day too.

Cheers,

John.

Hello
Oscar Boesch was shot down that day, he bailed out and came down in a farmers field near Bocholt he told me.
Uffz Rolf Bertoche was also shot down that day, he also bailed out of his Fw 190!
Regards
Karl Lusink
ARGA

[peter monasso]

Hi all !
Thanks to John, Andreas and Karl,
It’s also a mystery to me ! The LB report of 9-5-44 about crash 8-5-44 and the crash site are exactly the same: name farmer, name farmhouse, address etc. and that’s the place where we did excavate and found the little plate with WN 682655. The suggestion for another Fw of II Sturm/JG4 or JG3 is not too bad so is there anyone who has more info about losses of these units ? I checked my files about the other 5 Fw sites of 14-1-45 we excavated in the past but these have other WN’s as follows: Fw 190A-9 205241 Stab/JG3 Bodo Siegfried, Fw 190A-9 205266 13/JG3 Karl Kleinemeier, Fw 190A-8/R2 682218 13/JG3 Otto Ehrhardt, Fw 190 A-8/R2 739412 15/JG3 Harry Götz and Fw 190A-8/R2 682820 14/JG3 Heinz Bake.
So in fact there is not a chance that we switched the little plates. Apart from that the notation of WN 682655 was made immediately after I found it on 21st June 1975. The other Fw 190 sites (9) we examined were not of 14-1-45 and even if they were we didn’t find WN-plates on those occasions so couldn’t have swop these. Maybe someone will find more info on 682655 to solve this mystery in due course. Thank you for your help.
Peter

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by peter monasso

Hi all !
Thanks to John, Andreas and Karl,
It’s also a mystery to me ! The LB report of 9-5-44 about crash 8-5-44 and the crash site are exactly the same: name farmer, name farmhouse, address etc. and that’s the place where we did excavate and found the little plate with WN 682655. The suggestion for another Fw of II Sturm/JG4 or JG3 is not too bad so is there anyone who has more info about losses of these units ? I checked my files about the other 5 Fw sites of 14-1-45 we excavated in the past but these have other WN’s as follows: Fw 190A-9 205241 Stab/JG3 Bodo Siegfried, Fw 190A-9 205266 13/JG3 Karl Kleinemeier, Fw 190A-8/R2 682218 13/JG3 Otto Ehrhardt, Fw 190 A-8/R2 739412 15/JG3 Harry Götz and Fw 190A-8/R2 682820 14/JG3 Heinz Bake.
So in fact there is not a chance that we switched the little plates. Apart from that the notation of WN 682655 was made immediately after I found it on 21st June 1975. The other Fw 190 sites (9) we examined were not of 14-1-45 and even if they were we didn’t find WN-plates on those occasions so couldn’t have swop these. Maybe someone will find more info on 682655 to solve this mystery in due course. Thank you for your help.
Peter

Hello Peter, Andreas and John.
Is it possible that 2 aircraft came down near the farm of KLein Gunnewiek?
One on 08/05/1944 and the other one on 14/01/1945?
The LB report from 9/5/1944 says: "the aircraft was competely destroyed and the wreckage was spread out over a large area".
The combination BMW D engine, MK-108 and MG-151 and Wnr 682655
must be a IV (Sturm)./ JG 3 aircraft!
The Fw 190A8-R2 had the outer MG-151 replaced by a MK-108!
SO they carried one Mk 108 and one MG 151 in each wing!
From 8 a/c of IV./JG 3 there is a "Verlustmeldung".
According to Prien page 285 "demnach wurde der gesammte Verband im Luftkampf abgeschossen"! =12 aircraft!
Heinz Bake sagt: "Die Gruppe 12 Machinen stark, unter Führung of Fw Oscar Boesch.........."und soweit mir bekannt, bis auf Uffz Rolf Bertoche alle abgeschossen"!

Regards
Karl Lusink
ARGA

[John Manrho]

If there are two LB-reports, one for 8.5.1944 and one for 14.1.1945, then we can say there are two aircraft. Karl, can you confirm that?

regards,

John.

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

If there are two LB-reports, one for 8.5.1944 and one for 14.1.1945, then we can say there are two aircraft. Karl, can you confirm that?

regards,

John.

Hello John,
I have found one LB report, from 8.5.44!
Unfortunately I never found a LB report from 14.1.45!

Regards
Karl

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Firstly, I still believe it is too 'easy' to say that this aircraft MUST have been a IV./JG 3 aircraft. I agree that the evidence hints toward one of the Sturm units, but until further proof surface I still think it is wise not to make this assumption.

As I stated in an earlier post, the aircraft closest to the one in question seem to have been operated by the II.(Sturm)/J.G.4, a unit that also operated under the command of Luftwaffenkommando West at the time. I do not think it is unlikely that both these unit can have been operating against the same formations at the same dates.

Further - analyzing the losses of IV./JG 3 on 08.05.1944, we see that there was a loss that fit the description given in the report, namely an aircraft destroyed (summary loss category 4), and a pilot wounded (as given by the summary personnel loss records).

For this pilot and aircraft, a Namentliche Verlustemeldung should exist, and given the number of people frequenting these pages interested in the fighter units, I would surprised if no one has this on record.

I also wonder why there seems to be a total disregard to the more than 200 aircraft this unit lost in aerial combat during the latter part of 1944 and beginning of 1945, besides on the 14.01.1945...

If we agree that this aircraft became available to units sometime in October 1944, you would still have major dates in the unit history like the 12.11.1944 when 12 + 3 aircraft were destroyed/damaged in combat, 02.12.1944 with 10 aircraft damaged or destroyed, 17.12.1944 with 4, 23.12.1944 with 7 and so on and so on

The possibility that we will ever find out is rather slim, especially as I feel that we can rule out aircraft where the pilot were either wounded, killed or went missing (these would turn up in the corresponding NVM's).

You could of course be lucky, and find some thread of evidence, but the likeliness of this is limited.

Turning to the 08.05.1944 again Peter, I think you sadly enough will have to research a lot more than the IV./JG 3 aircraft lost on this date in order to identify the one in the report. According to my records, the Jagdwaffe lost roughly 50 aircraft to enemy action in the west on this date, and now that I feel we can rule out FW 190 682655 as being downed on this date you will have to start with a blank sheet on this one also...

If you need the list of aircraft and units to start your research, let me know.

Regards,
Andreas B

[John Manrho]

Andreas,

I think you are missing the point here....there are two issues;

1) Crash on 8.5.1944. This is confirmed by the LB-report. Crashsite described in report. We don't know who this is. He sustained minor injuries. I have still the feeling this could very well be Fw. Benvenuto Gartmann of 7./JG 1. We only know he crashed "über Hengelo" which is a vague description. Unfortunately I don't have his VLM. However, he flew a Bf 109G-6.

2) Peter Monasso found parts at that site (in 1975 and indicating he doesn't think there is a mix up with another site) of a Fw 190A-8/R2 Werknummer 682655. One thing we know this a/c can not be the crash of 8.5.1944 as this a/c was not manufactured before Nov. 1944.

The only conclusion can be that Fw 190A-8/R2 WNr. 682655 comes from another crash. Karl puts up the theory this could be coming from a different crash very near the 8.5.44 crash, just by coincidence. This is possible.

If we look at the 682655 it is very logical this could be one of the "missing" Fw 190's of 14.1.45. At least seven IV./JG 3 pilots crashed near Lichtenvoorde on 14.1.45 (with one unknown WNr.) and only 5-6 crashsites are 100% known. It could even be that 2-3 more Fw 190's crashed that day near Lichtenvoorde with pilots bailing out, so no VLM.

Furthermore I do not know of any other battle of IV./JG 3 or even more unlikely of II./JG 4 over that area. Andreas, all the battles of IV./JG 3 you list; 2.12.44, 17.12.44, 23.12.44 are all in totally different areas. Except for Bodenplatte II./JG 4 never came near Holland....

Just my two cents...

regards,

John.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, John and all

Sorry for my bad language in the previous post, should have cleaned it up, but had to write it in a hurry between two meetings....

This was more or less my point also, that in order to solve this mystery, the reported loss of 8.5.1944 and the excavated parts of a FW 190 in (probably) Sturmjäger configuration should be treated as two separate incidents.

As you know I am not studying the airwar over the central parts of Europe in full detail, others have a larger interest in that than me, and I find it great that you took the time to share this vital information, namely that the probability that the other Sturm units operated close to Holland was very slim indeed, exactly what was needed.

OK, time for some shut-eye.

Regards,
Andreas B

[peter monasso]

Hello Forum (John, Karl, Andreas and others)
First of all, sorry, sorry,sorry for the confusion I’ve caused with my question and statements ! You were right! There were two crashes at the same address which I had forgotten indeed because my research there was already in 1975 but I found back a second report of a crash at the same farmer! How could I have forgotten this ? Well the reason is as follows: first what I said, it was quite a long time ago since I interviewed the farmers over there and second: the 2nd crash didn’t make much impression because however the a/c did crash there the a/c parts didn’t penetrate into the earth but stayed above surface, so there was no reason for us to start digging at the time. The only thing that made some impression was that the farmer Klein Gunnewiek told us that one of the planes’ wheels went right through the frontdoor of the farm and came inside the house. The farmer knew it was a German fighter plane. What we know of the LB report is that this plane came down on May 8th 1944 at about 12.45 hrs. I think the LB-report Karl has is the same one I have telling that the pilot did land at Beltrum and was wounded and taken to the Hospital at Lichtenvoorde by the mayor/head of the LB of Lichtenvoorde. So the a/c came down near farm ‘Meekes’ name farmer J.B. Klein Gunnewiek, address B 126, nowadays Poelhutterslatsdijk 2, Lievelde and the LB-report says that the a/c was totally destroyed. In my files I found that according to whitness this a/c had more or less engine trouble and did crash in front of the farm ‘Meekes’. The a/c was dismantled and taken away. There were no parts left at the farms’ place that’s why we found nothing and kept this crash not very clear in our memory! Maybe we find out which a/c this was and important to realize is that this one could even be a Bf-109 as well as a Fw 190. There is no evidence for the type at this moment only the date. The second crashed a/c came also near the same farm at a dinstance not more than 150 meters away from the first and that one has WN 682655 and was Fw 190A-8/R2 or R8 the one we dug up on June, 21st, 1975 and of which we found the WN. 682655 plate and of which you all said that this only could have been an a/c later than Nov. 1944 after leaving the production line and of course you were right! Sorry but I did mix up both of these two crashes which in fact did occur very close tho each other. One left of the farm and the other one to the right of the farm. I do agree with you that this doesn’t mean that 682566 did came down on 14-1-1945 but it is most likely, however also 1-1-1945 “Bodenplatte” could be but I don’t think so because that date would have been more in clear memory to the farmer which wasn’t told me like that. So I think it could have been 14-1-1945. Indeed quite a few farmers we spoke told that at least 7 German fighter planes came down on one and the same afternoon. This could have been Sunday 14-1-1945 very well as we all know. I’ll give next all the info we have about most of the Fws’ 190 we found and I’ll follow the numbering of the Dutch Loss List (Verlieslijst) this because Karl asked me what we have about all the other FW’s of 14-1-1945. (however I think there are some faults in the Dutch Loss List) The sequence is: Number Dutch Loss List, Date, time, exact location (name farmer/farmhouse, address), a/c type, Werk Nummer, name Pilot, Unit and circumstances of the crash according to whitness.
1. T5111: 14-1-45 Hulshof, Hulshofweg, Harreveld, Fw 190A-9 WN 205241, Bodo Siegfried, Stab/JG3. 2. T5112, 14-1-1945. Dwarsdijk, Vragender, FW 190A-9 WN 205266, Karl W. Kleinemeier 13/JG3 used his parachute, wounded, broken his left underleg. We found parts of the WN resulting in the fact that the number could only be 205266. 3. T5113 14-1-1945 Ter Bogt, Horsterweg, Avest/Beltrum, Fw 190A-8/R2, WN 682218, Otto Ehrhardt …, 13/JG3. Pilot laid mutilated under the wreckage, a/c exploded in fire, shot down by 2 allied a/c. Whitness say this was an Austrian Pilot: who knows if Ehrhardt was from Austria ? 4. T5114. 14-1-1945 Doornenbrink, Batsdijk, Ruurlo, Fw 190A-8/R2, WN 682820, Heinz Bake, 14J/G3, tail of a/c was shot away by allied a/c. Pilot was hurt but did land with parachute. 5. T5115. 14-1-1945 14.30 hrs. H.F.te Molder, Vremanstraat 3, Mariënvelde/Halle, Fw 190A-8/R2, WN 682810, Wilhelm Scheschonka …, 15/JG3, Pilot was found dead near a haystack very close to the crash site. Note: German Loss List JG3 say ‘Air battle near Deelen’. In fact crash site is about 40 Km east from Deelen. 6. T5116. 14-1-1945. ± 3 hrs. PM, Doppen, Kevelderstraat, Zieuwent. Fw 190A-8/R2, WN 739412, Harry Götz, 15/JG3, attacked in the afternoon by two allied fighter a/c. Pilot used his parachute, was not seriously wounded and picked up by a German motor-cycle combination and taken to the temporary hospital at Harreveld. 7. T5116A. 14-1-1945.(?) Farmer J.B. Klein Gunnewiek, address B 126, nowadays Poelhutterslatsdijk 2 Lievelde, name farm ‘Meekes’. Fw 190A-8/R2 or R8. WN 682655. Pilot came down with parachute a few Km’s east of his a/c near Zieuwent. He was also wounded and brought to the temporary hospital at Harreveld. Remember: this also could have been happened on 1-1-1945 ‘Bodenplatte’. About the numbers 2,3,5 and 7 I’m quite sure because we found evidence with WN-plates. About the other nrs. 1,4 and 6 I’m not 100% sure. Next I have a number of other German fighter a/c of which much is unknown and of which possibly one or more could be counted to 14-1-1945 but not all I think!
8. unknown date: J.B. te Poele, Boschlaan 31, Lievelde, Fw 190 or Bf 109. emergency landing/engine failure. 9. unknown date, on a Sunday. Lensink, Vosdijk 11 / Heringsaweg, Vragender. Fw 190. Pilot broke his leg and was taken to the temporary hospital at Harreveld. (Could be T5116B) 10. unknown date. Fw 190 or Bf 109. Vragender Esch, Winterswijkseweg, Vragender close to the Gunnewick mill. Pilot tried to land in an oats field but came upside down in this field behind the mill. Workers from the mill went to the plane and lifted one of its’ wings which enabled the pilot to climb out, but before doing so they were welcomed by a small dog that had left the cockpit. Maybe there were not too much German pilots who got used to it to take their little dog with them during ‘real dog fights’ ? Anyhow the pilot came out as 2nd passenger and walked to the mill to make a phonecall to say he was OK in a time there were no handy’s and was picked up later. Any idea who this could have been? 11. Fw 190 or Bf 109 probably 23-9-1944. 2 hrs. PM Gierkink, Vragenderweg near the local swimmingpool, Vragender. Pilot made an emergency landing and thought he was in the Market-Garden area which he asked a local farmer. Pilot came out safe. When he saw a farmer entering his place he ran back to his a/c and got his pistol out of the cockpit and engaged this farmer. (mr. Overkamp) Parts of fabric of this a/c tail end got stricked in a nearby tree. Maybe Nr. T4330 ? Big puzzle isn’t it?
Regards,
Peter
PS By the way I have some more WN’s of dug up a/c of other dates of which I’m not sure and I intend to bring these in this forum later. First I’ve to manage a paper version of the Dutch Loss List because searching only on the screen is not always easy.

[karl lusink]

Hello Peter,
One of the a/c could be of Lt Neuner of 2./JG 1
T-4828B
Came down 18 km N of Bocholt at Lichtenvoorde
23-12-1944 Fw 190 A-8 Wnr:171155
FSA with broken arm to Res. Laz. Bocholt.
nr 11 could not be Uffz Hans Gotzelt, he was KIA and his grave is at Donsbrüggen near KLeve Grave 672 !

Regards
Karl Lusink
ARGA