Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s

[edwest]

I think I may have found a clue. Go here,


http://books.google.com/books?id=XIE...esult#PPT49,M1


and start with the last paragraph on page 56, and on to the next page.



Ed

[Doug Stankey]

I forgot to mention .......

One is that the He 111 had a flare launching tube into which the flare gun would interlock. This tube exits the plane below the observer's position in the area which is usually sky blue color, not far from the bombsight. The handle of the flare gun is visible in many pics just to the right of the bombardier's "bed", just forward of the map case and repeater compass. The Heinkel is a most interesting aircraft with many design novelties.

[David Ransome]

Hi,
Believe it or not this is the third time that i have tried to post this!

The unit is ablock perforated with circular holes, angled downwards , which held flare cartridges and was usually covered with lightweight doped fabric. On the iside it appeared as a metal case and lid, marked 'Leuchtpatronen'. Somewhere nearby would be a 'leuchtpistole', and a tube through which this would fire. I know that on one H-16 this tube was just in front of the bomb aimer position but I am sure that I've seen them alongside this position as well, to the right. I may be wrong but I'm sure that the cartridges wouldn't, or couldn't, be deliberately fired through the block.

On the H-16 there were three small 'leuchtpatronenkasten' at floor level under the secondary instrument panel. On the H-20 there was one slightly larger unit under the Tochterkompasse just in front of the navigators seat. On the H-20 the 'leuchtpistole' was positioned just in front of the case, possibly in the 'firing tube'.

I'm positive that there were variations, even with the same model type!

Regards,

David

[Larry]

A quick look through Aerodata Intenational No 12 - Heinkel 111 P & H reference booklet shows on P.224 a patch of the same side and same place on the starboard side in aircraft on the production line of He 111P.

Also the drawing on P229 shows that the Signal Flare Pouch was stowed just above where these holes appear on the aircraft.

[George Hopp]

Since most flare storage was normally armoured, this might have been another take on the problem. Since there was little or no armour on fighters and bombers in 1939 through much of 1940, placing the flares in an external storage area would enable them to be easily jettisoned in case the aircraft was intercepted.

[Doug Stankey]

Well, the mystery expands!

It eventually dawned on me that a certain Japanese/English pictorial might have illustrations of this area and Aero Detail No. 18 Heinkel He 111 has several pics of interest. ISBN 4-499-22670-8.

It appears to support the flare holder theory.


Page 31 shows an external view of the cheese grater without the cloth cover. Pics 31 and 32.
Page 19 shows the interior of this assembly. Pics 92 and 98 are quite revealing

There appears to be no other illustrations of this in this book.



So it appears that this is a flare holder located just below the repeater compass.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

So, do I get this right that this device is only a storage container for flares, and that this container was mounted through a hole cut through the fuselage skin? What would be the purpose, if the flares were to be fired by a gun through another tube, for cutting a hole through the side of the fuselage skin? Couldn't the cartridge container just be mounted somewhere in the cockpit, and the cartridges could be pulled out for firing by the gun when they were needed? Why mount this all the way through the skin of the aircraft? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding what you're saying here?

Regards,

[harrison987]

Flares were occasionally used to signal WHERE to drop bombs during poor visibility. I know the RAF used flares which once launched they would drop an illuminate the target area. Cannot remmebrif the germans did the same.

Not need to have them pointed up, as asked earlier...the Me109 had the flare port also pointed down.

[David Ransome]

Hi Larry,

It was for storage, presumably with safety in mind they were positioned to fire outwards and away from the aircraft if accidentally detonated. Looking at photos there are no cables or firing mechanisms going to the cases and the depth of the boxes is about the same as a cartridge case.

The openings for the flare blocks were made on the production line but I think that there was an option to fit either the block or a closing panel, certainly on earlier aircraft as in your photos.

From memory the pistol itself was just a push fit into the firing tube.

Regards,

David

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by David Ransome

It was for storage, presumably with safety in mind they were positioned to fire outwards and away from the aircraft if accidentally detonated.

That clears up my worry, that it would be very hazardous to fire flares from the sidewall of an He 111 cockpit in flight. The odds of hitting the wing or other part of the airframe would be quite high, I'd think. And you wouldn't want a burning flare anywhere near the engines or the intakes.