<<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

Speaking of Werner Zell, could you please ask him about Heinrich Rosner? Rosner downed two bombers. I want to know Heinrich Rosner's age when he had done the mission, or his age when he diedin 2001. I wanted to write an almost perfect book for my research on the Sonderkommando ELBE pilot Heinrich Rosner.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Thanks Leo for your very detailled accound. By the way it is the first time I have seen a so low loss count for German fighters involved in this operation. I have never studied it in details, but it seems to most sources describe it as a far more costlier failure, with more than 100 of the Bf 109 shot down (for example, the German wikipedia I just checked to be sur my memory was correct says that 133 German fighters were lost !). But your data seems far more complete and shows that it almost al (if not all) Elbe pilots that engaged the enemy this day were shot down or forced to crash-land (nothing surprising given their mission and the powerful US escort), they were only about 50.

Best regards

[Oberst]

Leo,

Thanks again for the detailed information you provide.

[Kutscha]

Thanks Leo, that makes more sense.

[Brian Bines]

Is there a list available of Luftwaffe pilot losses for the Elbe operation? There is a DVD from the History Channel in Dogfights Season Two called ''Luftwaffe's Deadliest Mission'' which includes interviews with a few vets. of this mission. The DVD is in the US format which needs a Multi Region player, the DVD is available on E-Bay sometimes.

[Oberst]

Dr. Fritz Marktschaftel, who was interviewed by a friend of mine has known him for years asked him some very pointed questions about the channel and their operations, he was very hesitant to work with any TV channel whether US or European as he had been shafted in the past giving his first person account of the aerial engagement in April of 45. Sadly Fritz was correct in his findings. The history channel took into account what THEY wanted to broadcast and did not cover the operations adequately. In fact the channel cut off all the German veterans short in their stories. No word of JG 7 Me 262 operations which were more successful in their ops against B-17's this date. Fritz was very upset bluntly with the way the episode turned out and most probably will not ever be interviewed again.

[Charles Bavarois]

Hello guys,

this is what I collected on German losses from secondary sources. AFAIK no official wartime report has survived. Most is based on info from Dr. Fritz Markscheffel who to my knowlegde was the first one to write about german "Selbstopferer" in the mid 1980s. "Unbekannt" stands for "name not known". As the information is not yet cross-checked, it should be regarded as provisional only. Some pilots may be not members of Rammkommando Elbe. Any comments, corrections or adds are welcome:

rank-name-chr.name-fate-location-cause

Uffz Henkel Heinrich ? Amelinghausen 10 km SW Lünburg crashed
Lt Rübsam Ernst-Hermann ? Prag-Kletnan landing gear start
Fw Funk Erich kia Raum Einbeck S Hildesheim flak (?)
Gefr Tetzel Ernst wia Demkerbrode bei Hameln flak emerg. landing
Uffz Uhlich Georg kia Raum Einbeck flak (?)
Ogfr Seidel Horst kia Flur Engeausen S Ostenholzer Moor para
Ofhr Böhm Joachim-Wolfgang wia Tripkau N Dannenberg Luftkampf
FjFw Bohnke Gerhard kia Neddenauverbergen bei Stemmer Luftkampf P-47 parachuting
Fhr Evers Herbert kia? Zimmernsupra bei Erfurt Luftkampf
Grüner Franz kia Gemeindewald von Störckendrebber Luftkampf P-51
Uffz Hahn Klaus wia Raum Nienburg-Soltau Luftkampf ramming B-17
Ogfr Harms Hugo kia Nienhagen Luftkampf P-51 emerg. landing
Fw Hedwig Reinhold kia N Stillenhofen Luftkampf P-51
Uffz Körner Walter kia Straße Schneeren - Bolsehle N Steinhuder Meer Luftkampf
Ofw Lindner Werner kia SW Meißendorf/Aller Luftkampf P47 parachuting Ofw Müller Heinz unhurt Apelstedt S Bremen Luftkampf P-47 parachuting
Hptm Müller Hugo unhurt Lüneburg Luftkampf P-51 emerg. landing
Gefr Redmer Johann wia N Lauenburg Luftkampf parachuting
Gefr Ringhofer Rudi wia Hamwarde bei Stade Luftkampf P-51 parachuting
Fhr Schmidt Franz-Josef pow Norddeutschland, Nähe Weser Luftkampf Jäger emerg. landing
FjOfw Schrader Karl-Heinz kia SO Stemmer Luftkampf P-51
Hptm Sorge Ernst unhurt Lüneburg Luftkampf P-51 emerg. landing
unbekannt ? Engehausen Luftkampf P-51
unbekannt kia Soltau nahe Autobahn Luftkampf P51 parachuting
unbekannt kia Wunstorfer Moor Luftkampf P-51
unbekannt kia Wunstorfer Moor Luftkampf P-51
Gefr Walkhoff Herbert mia Bei Stöckendrebber Luftkampf P-51
Uffz Zapp Jakob kia Warmeloh S Schwarmstedt Luftkampf P-51 parachuting Lt Engelhardt Dieter mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Fuhrmann Wolfgang mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Oblt Hansen Olaf mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Messerschmid mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Thiel Armin mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Löscher Ludwig ? Raum Sachau (?) engine failure emerg. landing
Uffz Pomsel Horst ? Flpl. Lüneburg engine failure emerg. landing
Fw Reichenberger Walter ? unbekannt engine failure emerg. landing
Uffz Römer Hugo ? Leitzkau SO Leipzig engine failure bellylanding
unbekannt ? Flpl. Stendal engine failure parachuting
Gefr Huber Adolf ? unbekannt emerg. landing
unbekannt wia Hötzingen 8 NW Munster emerg. landing
Lt Brökelschen Hans unhurt Scheeren ramming B-17 emerg. landing
Uffz Kölsche Werner unhurt Munster-Nord ramming B-24 parachuting
FjFw Meya Fritz kia Wendhausen ramming B-17 ast
Lt Nagel Hans kia Berkhof ramming B-17
Fw Otto Walter unhurt Stadthagen ramming B-17 parachuting
Hptm Pesch Roman wia Engehausen ramming B-17 parachuting
Fhr Pröck Eberhard kia Engehausen S Engeholzer Moor ramming B-17 parachuting
Ogfr Rosner Heinrich wia Raum Visselhövede-Soltau ramming B-17 parachuting
Ofhr Schulz-Sembten Dietrich unhurt Engehausen ramming B-17 parachuting
unbekannt ? Wesendorf ramming B-17
unbekannt ? Wesendorf ramming B-17
Uffz Wiedlerroither Gottlieb ? Unbekannt ramming parachuting
Uffz Zell Werner wia Grindau bei Schwarmstedt ramming B-17 lk
Richter Gerhard unhurt Flpl. Halberstadt technical fault
Fw Aue Eberhard kia Bei Gardelegen unknown
Lt Gering Hans kia Winslar, Kreis Leese unknown
Uffz Godry Viktor mia unknown unknown
Grabinger Anton kia Raum Uelzen unknown
Lt Grützke Walter kia Bei Barkow unknown
Fw Hassel kia Brokeloh/Bühren unknown
Jansen Gerhard kia Raum Uelzen unknown
Uffz Kerner Walter kia unknown unknown
Fw Kraul kia Über Reichsgebiet unknown
Lt Krauss Werner kia unknown unknown
Uffz Schmidt Hans-Werner kia Lüneburg unknown
Oblt Schörner Otto kia Raum Eschede unknown
Gefr Schottenhaml Josef kia Über Reichsgebiet unknown
Thode Rolf kia unknown unknown
Uffz Weiss Gerg kia Bei Köthen unknown



Carl

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by Charles Bavarois

Fw Reichenberger Walter ? unbekannt engine failure emerg. landing

Fw. Reichenberger, Walter, Spritmangel, Bf 109, "38", bei Breddin, Notlandung (60%)

Best regards
Rasmussen

[Oberst]

Hello,

In post 17 it says "parachuting" in various places. Does that mean the German pilots who bailed successfully? Or some other? Sorry I don't seem to understand those statements. Thanks.

[Gizmo]

Hi

Here is my loss list for USAAF Bombers
B-17 42-97105 388. BG 561. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 43-38869 388. BG 563. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 42-31366 452. BG 731. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 44-8634 452. BG 731. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 43-38868 452. BG 728. BS Shot down by fighters
B-17 44-8531 452. BG 728. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 44-8225 390. BG 579. BS Shot down by Me 262
B-17 44-8334 100. BG 349. BS Shot down by Bf 109
B-17 42-97071 100.BG 418. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 44-8744 385. BG 550. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 43-39070 493. BG 860. BS Shot down by fighters
B-17 43-38002 490. BG 850. BS Shot down or rammed Bf 109
B-17 44-8528 486. BG 834. BS Destroyed by bombs dropped from other B-17
B-17 43-39163 486. BG 835. BS Shot down by Flak
B-24 44-49254 389. BG Rammed by Bf 109
B-24 44-49533 389. BG 566. BS Collision with B-24 44-49254
B-24 42-94870 445.BG Shot down by Me 262
B-24 44-48830 446. BG 704. BS Crashed in England
B-24 42-94931 467. BG 789. BS Rammed by Bf 109, crew bailed out over Belgium
B-24 42-95194 466. BG 787. BS Crashed during start


...and 8th USAAF fighter units claims for 7th April

4. FG 4 Bf 109
55.FG 6 Bf 109
56. FG 4 Bf 109 , 1 Bf 109 poss, Me 262 dam
78. FG 4 Bf 109, 1 Fw 190
339. FG 7 Bf 109, 4 Fw 190, 1 Bf 109; 1 Me 262 poss; 1 Bf 109, 5 Me 262 dam
352. FG 1 Bf 109
353. FG 7 Bf 109; 1 Bf 109 dam
355. FG 2 Bf 109, 2 Fw 190; 1 Me 262 dam
356. FG 2 Bf 109, 1 Fw 190; 1 Bf 109 poss; 1 Me 262 dam
357. FG 2 Bf 109
479. FG 9 Bf 109, 2 Me 262; 1 Me 262 poss 1 Me 262 dam
Total: 48 Bf 109, 8 Fw 190 2 Me 262; 3 Bf 109 2 Me 262 poss; 2 Bf 109, 9 Me 262 dam

Usually USAAF fighter claims are 50% higher than actual result, so possibly they shot down around 30-35 Elbe planes.