Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943

[Oberst]

Thanks for the additional information!

[Brian Bines]

The Me 323 fell to a Marauder of 14 Sqd.

[keith A]

So it would appear for 21 read 4 or less, and German claims a little high but within the 1:3 ration that seems to pertain to most air combats. The 325th don't appear to award shared claims so it looks like everyone who fired at an aeroplane was credited with a victory.

It seems that this could be down to inexperience. Theirs claims appear to have more validity as the months go by.

regards

Keith

[yogybär]

Quite special thing, such a big "pure" fighter-fighter-battle!

Does anyone know which subseries of P-40 was in use by then in the 325th FG?

[yogybär]

Thanks, Andrew!

The numerical advantage of the 325th FG must also be taken into account:

36 P-40 vs. max. 22 Bf109 from III./JG77 is a factor of 1,6. I think that in such situations, it was extremely difficult to keep up "coordination and good tactics" in a prolonged dogfight even if the Germans had surprise on their side in the beginning.

[keith A]

Hi,

I take the point that the P40s outnumbered the Bf109s marginally but the 325th was an inexperienced Fighter group with just 3 months front-line combat behind them. The 33rd, 57th and 324th all had more experience and much lower victory tallies in largely the same timescale. I agree the LW fighter units casualty figures and the lack of an Italian option indicateS massive overclaiming. The absence of evidence to the contrary doesn't mean the evidence to substantiate these claims has been misplaced. Without a credible reason to dismiss them the facts speak for themselves.The 325th never show any shared victories at this time. If the pilots all thought they were claiming individually then surely that's the best explanation? There's more than enough evidence of this in other units, both RAF and USAAF. Without a rigorous examination by their I/O then perhaps the claims were in good faith. Did the 325th fighters have camera guns? If they did indeed shoot down 4 Bf109G then that's a pretty decent result on their side.

It would be interesting to know that the other USAAF units thoughts of their performance in these engagement.

regards

Keith

[Oberst]

K's I believe. It may have been 'L's' but I don't think they were fully equipt with them until August? Could be wrong though.

[Frank Olynyk]

According to the combat reports of the 325th FG, the were flying mostly P-40Fs, with a few P-40Ls also.

Frank.

[Oberst]

The 325th were still using F's at that point? I did not know that.

[Gianandrea Bussi]

Italian aircraft were not involved in the combat with 325th FG.

Gianandrea