Why so long ,,??

[Tim O.]

It is very hard to understand the situation back then viewed through modern eyes and the perspective of the history we were all taught. My mother's family had a German governess before the war and the services of a German POW to do their gardening during the war. My mother's cousin was engaged to a Luftwaffe pilot before the war and he was killed in action later. My father was a youth in Birmingham (UK) and remembered the incendiaries falling in his garden and onto his roof; also a parachute mine swinging on the power cables. Dad always hated the Germans and Mum always liked them, despite her being in London nursing during the Blitz. Things were not as clear cut as the histories suggest!

Best wishes
Tim O.

[John Vasco]

To put things in proper perspective from the UK/USA viewpoint, the following is what actually happened.

1. It is a 'given' that at the end of the war, Germany was in a state of chaos. It did not make sense to simply ship all German PoWs straight back into Germany, thereby compounding the already chaotic situation there.

2. The Allies had to set about sorting out the infrastructure of the country. One German pilot shot down during the Battle of Britain and a PoW in Canada during the war, Georg Jakstadt of 9./ZG 26, told me that upon return to Germany a couple of years after the war, he was given his discharge papers in Hamburg, and then walked the 250 kilometres home. He said it was a common sight to see PoWs on the roads heading home for quite some time.

3. Staying with Georg Jakstadt, once returned to England, but prior to being shipped back to Germany, he, and all the others, were given the option of either sitting on their arses until they went back to Germany, or doing work. Most chose work, so Georg and others went off to work each day on a farm. He had fond memories of his time working on a farm in England, and when he visited here once Germany was re-unified (he had lived in the old East), I and another researcher were able to take him back to the farm where he had worked in the 1940s - a very moving occasion. Also, the German PoWs were offered work while in Canada (since technically, once the war ceased, they were no longer 'prisoners' in the true sense of the word, but simply awaiting repatriation). So Otto Hintze, Staka of 3./Erpr. Gr. 210 during the BoB spent just over a year as a lumberjack in Canada, something he told me that he thoroughly enjoyed.

4. Another thing that happened at war's end was that the Allies graded their prisoners into three categories: White, grey and black. White were considered to be those who had no Nazi party ties or affiliation whatsoever, and they were repatriated first. greys were those whom the Allies thought needed a certain level of work done on them to remove their possible indoctrinated views re the Third Reich, and they were held back until the 'Whites' had been returned. The 'Black' category were those the Allies believed were fully indoctrinated with the Nazi ideology, and need thorough work to show them that they had fought for was thoroughly rotten. They went through a very carefully prepared programme of de-indoctrination before they were finally returned to German society, the last batch of the three.

So what Remi says here: "...also those who stayed in anglo-americano-franco ++ hands hv to wait sometimes quite a long before returning , when they are still alive, home, is some basic rights rather unobserved there ???..." is a load of crap. No basic rights were infringed whatsoever. It was a case of the Allies having to get Germany on its feet and up and running again on social and economic levels (not least because of the 'Cold War' scenario) and having to reintegrate many, many, thousands of Germans back into a society that was totally different to what they had left. THAT is the reality the Allies faced...

[RT]

"...also those who stayed in anglo-americano-franco ++ hands hv to wait sometimes quite a long before returning , when they are still alive, home, is some basic rights rather unobserved there ???..." is a load of crap.

I could understand that every people could defend fiercely their side, but if after the fights still 2 or 3 millions germans died, probably one hv to kill them , its a bit to easy to call after car crashes , or ... indigestion . after quite a century possibly it hv to be possible to look at the facts

Rémi

[Nick Beale]

If this is just going to be about the respective merits and motivations of different belligerents' postwar repatriation policies, it's better moved to the "Second World War In General" part of the forum.

Or should I just close it down now?

[RT]

Nick you are right , that type of thread is a bit like trench-fight !!! Nothing good pop-up !

Rémi

Brian is right at least , concerning the french , they lacked a bit of courtesy

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by RT

Brian is right at least , concerning the french , they lacked a bit of courtesy

Hummm .. But they like self-lashing it seems; don't they?

[Kaczmarek]

Originally Posted by pelagonia

I do not think that Germans can complain about the observation of basic rights, as Remi puts it. Germany was a signatory of the Geneva Convention, which stipulates (article 82) that all prisoners of war must be treated in accordance to it, regardless of the fact that the captured (Russian, in this case) soldiers belong to a state adhering to the convention or not. Nonetheless, nazi Germany managed to exterminate through mass executions and starvation almost 60% of the 6 millions Russian prisoners of war it took. The Russians in turn are probably responsible for the death of 1 million German POWs out of three taken. By 1955/6 - two years after Stalin's death - the last German prisoners were repatriated. I think that all considered, German POWs were luckier than their Russian counterparts. They started the war, choosing to invade a totalitarian country with a very bad record in the treatment of prisoners (nationals and not). Still, their rate of survival was twice as high as in German concentration camps. Reap what you sow...


Best,


Andrea

Some words from a German. Please don´t forget.

Approx. 3.24 Million Germans and Austrians were killed after the War !!
approx. 2 Million in russian camps
approx. 1 Million in american camps
approx. 120 000 in french camps
approx. 100 00 in yugoslavian camps
approx. 22 000 in Poland and CSSR

Additional to this approx. 120 000 in russian concentration camps (NO POW´s !).
Approx. 500 000 killed civilians after the red army occupation of Middle and Eastern Germany and approx. 60 000 killed civilians after the occupation in Austria.

Was this the justice of the winners ?

The Germans have learned from your history. I cannot say the same from other countries in the world.

Rgds,
Kaczmarek

PS: Nick Beale, please forgive me. I had to write this. I could not leave this thread without comment.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Kaczmarek

.

Rgds,
Kaczmarek

PS: Nick Beale, please forgive me. I had to write this. I could not leave this thread without comment.

I'd find it easier to forgive if you had linked to some actual sources for the figures you put forward, so that anyone interested could evaluate the evidence for themselves.

[Kaczmarek]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

I'd find it easier to forgive if you had linked to some actual sources for the figures you put forward, so that anyone interested could evaluate the evidence for themselves.

Who is interested can obtain corresponding information for himself from the Volksbund Deutsche Krieggräberfürsorge e.V. Kassel.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Kaczmarek

Who is interested can obtain corresponding information for himself from the Volksbund Deutsche Krieggräberfürsorge e.V. Kassel.

You have made the assertion, so come up with the facts. Don't just pass the buck to others to research - provide the concrete information to support you point.

And I think, with English not being your first language I believe, that the word 'kill' is not as appropriate as 'died'. 'Kill' implies a deliberate act of murder. I find it hard to take in the the Americans 'killed' 1 million Germans, post-war. I can well understand the mess Germany was in at the end of the war, given the road the Thirds Reich had taken the country down, and the ultimate consequences of that, but I find it difficult to comprehend that fact the America deliberately killed 1 million Germans. Perhaps you could explain this in great detail...?