P-61 buffs

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys
Late as usual I have no real answers but a few questions instead. Also these dates are different from Erich's....
My sources are
Victory lists no 5 and 6 by Frank Olynyk
Queen of the Midnight Skies by Pape and Harrison

There were the following Night Fighter Units in Europe at the time
414 NFS Base(28.9.44):Borgo,Corsica (3.45): Florennes,Belgium
415 NFS Base(28.9.44):Longvic,France (3.45):Ochey,later St Dizier,France
416 NFS Base(28.9.44):Pomigliano,Italy (3.45):Pisa,later Pontedera,Italy
417 NFS Base(28.9.44):Borgo,Corsica (3.45): La Vallon, France
422 NFS Base(28.9.44):Florennes,Belgium (3.45):Florennes,Belgium
425 NFS Base(28.9.44):Coulommiers,France(3.45):Etain,Franc e

According to Olynyk 415 NFS claimed a Fw 200K on 28.9.44 at 20.31H by Harold Augspurger. This claim is listed by Page/Harrison occuring on the 27th. The unit is in France at the time and this is the only claim coming close to your original request Brian. Since it was in the Dijon area it does not really fit "over the North Sea", but fits Fighter Command War Diaries vol 5... I am not sure if this automatically means that the date 28th is correct. Anyone who can confirm this??

What makes me curious is that Olynyk lists BOTH 414 and 415 NFS when they moved to France STILL under 12th Air Force charge but in the "Western Europe" book no 5.

Can someone more knowledgeable than me advise why the units were not transferred to the 9th AF? Would have made more sense to me !!

Regarding LOSSES, I have no books covering the US forces at this time.

Cheers
Stig

[Nick Beale]

There was a thread on this in 2002 I kept a copy of the responses and Michael Balss gave a location in Germany:

M.Balss: rear gunner
Fri Jun 21 06:57:11 2002
The Ormsby/Howerton crew shot down at Eschollbrücken near the Highway Frankfurt-Mannheim, about 10km SW Darmstadt, they are chasing a Ju 87, Ormsby hit the prop when he bailed out and only found dead in his chute in a tree by German civilians, Howerton was badly wounded but survived.

[Erich]

actually the Queens of the Midnight Skies shows the Fw 220 kill on September 27 and the He 111 on the 29th.

I'm probably going to have to sort through the crappy 415th nfs micro-fische to be certain.

422nd 15 P-61, 0 hunts-patrols: 10/10 cloud to CAVU

have no times listed on this date

# 58 Johnson : patrol in the Trier, Metz, malmedy areas
# 43 J. Anderson on 2 patrols in the area of Liege and malmedy
# 73 Lakes on patrol,hunt followed 1 P-38 in evasive manuevers around Liege
# 34 Elmore on 2 patrols in the area of Nancy and Saarbrucken
# 64 Otte on 2 patrols lost 1 contact near Füren
# 38 Koehler on 2 patrols, first one was a 0, the second followed a B-17 in the area of VErdun, Luxembourg
# 47 Gordon his AI went out and he aborted.
# 94 Nixon on 2 patrols, 1 friendly chase in area of Saarbrucken and Metz
# 40 Spelis chased 2 Friendlies in the aeas of Malmedy and Köln
# 77 Elbracht 0, lost contact as it was too fast while patroling the France-German border.

this was operation number 43: Defnsive Patrol for the 422nd NFS.
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[Erich]

Nick :

that is interesting as Howerton said after war that Ormsby bit it, hit twice by Flak and was already dead before Howerton bailed out wounded...........

ah research

[Erich]

425th nfs 28 September 1944, an operation on both dates. this is op # 40

14 P-61 on ops-patrols.

no times listed and only 2 pilots

# 81 Slayton on uneventful patrol
# 80 Lewis on uneventful patrol
# 70 Slayton returns and flies a different P-61, second mission 0 event

29 September 1944, this is op # 41

14 P-61's out on ops. Generalization of evening on micro-fische, some friendlies, some chases, lost contacts via AI or GCI

# 85 Glasser in the Trier area
# 49 Montmeat in the area of Trier and Metz
# 50 Slayton in the area of Toul and Essay
# 60 Saranowicz
# 70 Ornsby
# 81 Lewis
# 76 Bierer
# 46 Andrews
# 85 Buck
# 39 Yule
# 49 McDonald
# 60 Bradshaw
# 81 Byars: AI went out and he aborted
# 70 Janicek

that is it, pretty skimpy materials Brian sorry to say

hope iti helps a bit............
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[Laurent Rizzotti]

I have found cases both in French and German papers where known (at the time) friendly fire cases just disappeared of the official papers. Especially when there were fatalities. I think most of the time more can be learned from the files of the target unit rather than the "victorious" one.

Now, if I may dare to hijack this thread... Erich, I will be interested by the reports of 422 NFS for the kills of 4, 21 and 25 October 1944. Please contact me by PM if you have them and agree to share.

Regards

Laurent

PS: Brian, I just saw your mail about the V-1 book, I replied on your private mail.

[Brian]

Hi Erich

Your evidence is compelling and it seems that a P-61 DID NOT shoot down a Mosquito on the night of 28/29 September 1944. Thus I have avoided making such a statement and therefore error in my forthcoming book, which is likely to be controversial without me adding erroneous information.

May I prevail further on your generosity, please? As you may be aware I am writing about the V-1 assault on the UK in 1944, when the P-61s from both 422ndNFS and 425thNFS were involved. From your records, are you able to provide the following details:

20/21 July: Spelis (422nd) V-1 - do you have serial number and time of encounter?
27/28 July: Smith (422nd) V-1 ditto
5/6 August: Peterson (425th) V-1 serial number?
5/6 August: Axtell (422nd) Do217 probable - serial number and time?
6/7 August: Peterson (425th) V-1 - serial number and time?
7/8 August: Sartanowicz (425th) V-1 - ditto
8/9 August: Thompson (425th) V-1 - serial number and time?
14/15 Aug: P-61 engaged He177 - P-61 damaged by return fire and crash-landed - crew? serial number? time?
26/27 Nov: Smith (422nd) V-1 time?

I do apologise for requesting so much of your time but any information will help fill the gaps in my work. I will of course acknowledge your contribution.

Cheers
Brian

[Erich]

Brian and others :

hope this makes sense to you for your work, we have just had a major tragedy here so I am going off-line for sometime. Wanted to get this off to you becaue of your interest and Laurent I will be in touch with your inquiries

422nd :

July 15/16, 44

Lt. Ernst in # 47, 3 missions, shot down 1 V-1 at 900 yards with 3 bursts of 20mm.

July 16/17, 1944, operation # 2

Lt. elmore in # 34 dives on a V-1 and at 1000 feet gives the V-1 2 bursts, the V-1 explodes when hitting the ground. 650 rounds of 20mm used.

July 17, 1944, operation # 3, anti-diver patrols

4 P-61's up and 1 V-1 claim by ? , 513 rounds of 20mm used.

July 19/20, 1944 operation # 5, anti-diver patrols

4 P-61's up and 1 V-1 shot down by J.W. Anderson as he dove down on the bomb and dead astern fires between 2500 and 1500 feet. Flying P-61 # 43, used 224 rounds of 20mm

July 20, 1944, operation # 6, anti-diver patrols

2 V-1 claims, 1 crew unknown

# 40 T.Spelis dove down on a V-1 from 1000 feet at 340 mph. V-1 exlodes striking the P-61, damaging the left and right airelons as he flew through the debris, home safe. 820 rounds used.

July 23, 1944, opearion # 9, anti-diver patrols

7 P-61's up and a unifeid effort with sister unit, 425th nfs.

# 80 flown by the 425thnfs, a major Ross closed to within 3000 feet and then down to 1200 feet dead astern and fires on 1 V-1 destroying it with 160 rounds of 20mm.

this concludes the Anti-diver patrols against the V-1 with the 422nd NFS.

Brian be back shortly with the 425th nfs
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Erich

[Erich]

425th nfs

31 July 44

op # 1, 4 P-61's up, all pilots gave chases to V-1's, 0 success

5 August 44

op # 6, 4 P-61's up. # 81, Lt. Garth Peterson catchs a V-1 doing 180mph, dove on it behind 400 feet astern and fired, hits all over and under; the propulsion unit gives out and it dives down and crashes in the water 21 miles south of Hastings at 0445 hrs. 135 20mm rounds used

6 August 44

op # 7, 4 P-61's up. # 81 Lt. Garth Peterson at 300mph dove down on a V-1 and at 600 feet fired a long burst-several, V-1 blew up between Beachy Head and Brighton; 240 rounds used.
# 82, Thompson follows V-1 and he changed course to intercept, the V-1 blows up in the air (?)

7 August 44

op # 8, 3 P-61's up. # 82 Sartanowicz saw bomb at 3500 feet, flying at 200mph, came up behind and fired from 600 feet, propulsion unit went out and it dove into the channel 23 miles south of Hastings. 135 20mm rounds used.

8 August 44

op # 9, 4 P-61's up. # 82 Thompson flying at 360mph, saw a V-1 at 7,000 feet. Dove on it and down to 1800 feet and at 2,000 yards astern, fired, and as he got closer fired again and pulling up after a long burst, V-1 exploding. 820 rounds of 20mm used.

425th NFS moves to the burned out airfield at Vannes on August 12-26, 1944, non-operational due to reconstruction of field

please edit for content
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[Brian]

Hi Erich

Thanks a million - but am concerned by the 'major tragedy' you mention. I do hope it's not a personal one. Look forward to hearing from you again when time and circumstances permit.

With best wishes

Brian