Werner Altrogge

[Larry deZeng]

Altrogge says that unit became 3(F)/ObdL

I don't think so. 3.(F)/Ob.d.L. left Paris o/a 7 Feb 42 for Russia and never returned to France. It did pick up 2 x Ju 86 R-1s sometime in August 1942 but it handed these over to another unit by the end of the same month. But 4 x Ju 86s appear on the inventory of 14./KG 6 during the Aug - Nov 1942 period. I've read a number of accounts of these Ju 86R flights over the U.K. between August and October 1942 and they all say the unit was 14./KG 6.

3.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. Ob.d.L.
(Unit Code T5 + )
[extracts 29 Feb 14]

Formation. (1939)
Formed 10 October 1939, probably at Werder/Havel southwest of Berlin or at Jüterbog-Damm/Brandenburg (ex-8.(F)/Lehrgeschwader 2), and initially equipped with Dornier Do 17Ps.
- - - - - - - - Blah, Blah, Blah - - - - - - -
France and North Russia
Transferred to Paris-Orly around mid-November 1941 to rest, refit and complete conversion to the Junkers Ju 88 D, then departed for assignment to Luftflotte 1 at Gostkino/135 km SSW of Leningrad, arriving o/a 7 February 1942. On 1 March the Staffel reported 11 x Ju 88 D-1s and 1 x Do 215 B-4 on strength. Gostkino was bombed by Russian planes on 19 April, badly damaging two of the Ju 88 D-1s. On .25 April, Ju 88 D-1 (T5+HL) failed to return from a recce flight over the Vologda area, and Ju 88 D-1 (T5+DL) was reported lost over the Rybinsk area on 31 May.

Central and South Russia
Ordered from Gostkino to Kharkov on or about 10 August 1942 for assignment to the newly created Luftwaffenkdo. Don for strategic reconnaissance coverage east of the Don River to the Volga. The first loss reported was Ju 88 D-1 “Trop” (T5+OL), which failed to return on 12 September. On 4 October, Ju 88 D-1 (T5+EL) was listed as missing. On 1 December the Staffel reported 8 x Ju 88 D-1s, 1 x Ju 88 D-5, 2 x Ar 240 A-0s and 1 x Bf 109 F-4 on strength.

Renamed Aufklärungsstaffel 3.(F)/100 on 27 January 1943 at Kharkov.

L.

[Chris Goss]

Just quoting what Sommer wrote in Altrogge's summary of ops in mid-Sep 42

[Chris Goss]

Just found a letter from Sommer in which he said the intention was to form 14/KG 6 but the unit was disbanded before it happened.

[Karoband]

Gentlemen,

Larry in another thread writes:

"Flieger-Hauptingenieur vs Hauptmann (ing.): it was clear to mefrom looking through the thousands of pages of documents again that these are two separate and unrelated ranks. The former belonged to the TSD (Truppensonderdienst) while the latter were active duty Luftwaffe officers. The former were civilians [my emphasis] working for the Luftwaffe while the latter were active duty military personnel. They were not interchangeable one with the other."

So, was Altrogge:
a) a civilian who the Luftwaffe allowed to fly a bomber over England;
b) considered by the Luftwaffe to be a soldier; or
c) actually a Hauptmann (Ing.)?

By the by, further research shows:

a) Supposedly four Ju 86 R-2's were assigned to the unit:
T5+PM for Gotz/Sommer
T5+QM for Altrogge/Albrecht
T5+RM for both crews
T5+TM as a back-up aircraft.

b) That four Ju-86 R-2's are added to the inventory of 4.(F)/Aufklarungsgruppe Ob.d.L. in October 1942.

c) Larry and Doug's blurb on Albrecht says he was promoted to Oberleutenant on 01.07.42 which meant he would have out-ranked Sommer (a Leutnant) and Gotz (supposedly an Oberfeldwebel).

Best regards,

Jim

[Chris Goss]

Altrogge notes T5+QM, T5+RM, T5+SM and T5+GH. Sommer was indeed a Lt but Götz Fw dR & KOA promoted to Lt 1 Sep 42. Götz stated that his first flight was with T5+PM. Both Götz and Sommer refer to Altrogge as being attached to them from Rechlin. Photos of Altrogge show him in Luftwaffe uniform and wearing the EKI ribbon whilst Albrecht in the same photo is an Oblt

[Karoband]

Thanks, Chris.

The information and corrections are most welcome. As Altrogge was in a Luftwaffe uniform, I conclude that they regarded him as a soldier.

Jim

[Larry deZeng]

Someone should check the collar patches in the photos. A Luftwaffe Hauptmann had a patch with the half-wreath and three wings stacked above it. The Flieger-Hauptingenieur and Hauptmann (Ing.) wore a patch with the half-wreath and a 4-bladed propeller above it.

[Source: Davis, Brian L. Uniforms and Insignia of the Luftwaffe. Volume 1: 1933-1940 and Volume 2: 1940-1945. London: Arms and Armour, 1999 edition. ISBN: 1-85409-497-1 (256p.) and 1-85409- 498-X (320p.). Pb (with laminated cover). Heavily illustrated with photos and drawings. Bibliography. Index. See Volume 1 pp.92-94.]

[Chris Goss]

I am aware of the rank tabs but they cannot be discerned in both photos I have

[Larry deZeng]

That's indeed a shame...............I thought it might provide a means of arriving at a resolution on this.

L.