Did Bf109G's use Gunpods during Kursk?

[RT]

Concerning the hungerian mules, how much aircrafts are concerned by ??

I don't find any ref. of F-4 on the docs..

Remi

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Csaba Becze

Nope. These mules were born, because the Nazis sold many times just the crap planes to Hungary (worn out F-4's, for example, when their units used G-6's in the same time and area...).

Sidenotes:
1) Similar stories happened between GB/USA and USSR:
RAF flew SpitIX, USAAF flew P-51 while VVS was supplied with Hurricane, P-39 and P-40... it is normal imho to first supply yourself and then your Allies.

2) Don't forget that there were hungarian Nazis also. I really don't like the statements which implement positions like "bad bad germans were Nazis and all others incl. rest of Axis were their victims". IMHO, Hungary and Romania could have resisted like the western countries also. But they prefered to collaborate and try to take advantage above opposing Germany. Romania was lucky to be able to change sides, Hungary wasn't. But that all has reasons also inside each country.

Sure, Germany has the biggest responsibility of all countries. Nevertheless, every country incl. Allies, should critically check & analyse its position during that horrible era, not only we Germans. I don't want to whine, it's just my opinion.

So, now let's see what kind of discussion this post will kick off .

[Csaba B. Stenge]

I wrote a long answer, but it went to the air, because I was login too long. So, shortly.

Your similar stories are wrong. You should compare the Hungarians to the Croats, Slovaks and Romanians, who all flew with G's in first half of 1943, when the Hungarians got still old, crap F-4's. BTW Hungary was not a military ally of Germany in WW II (they were just brother-in arms, I guess, it is the best English expression for that).

In Hungary, there was an Arrow Cross movement, which was wery different from the Nazism (it not means, that it was better in any way). There were many German sympathizers as well, but not in the political way. If you don't know the Hungarian history, it is not a problem, but do not explain, what happened here without enough knowledge.

I have never written similar things, like this:"bad bad germans were Nazis and all others incl. rest of Axis were their victims"

BTW I am half Hungarian and half German, so I guess, I can criticize both nations, because I know both of them quite well (not just from the history).

[yogybär]

Csaba, thanks for your answer. Maybe I was a bit too sensitive.

My problem is mainly the word "Nazis" as name for Germany. It oversimplifies matters in several ways:
a) for Non-Germans, it is (imho) often interpreted in a way that "all Germans were (and still are) Facist, Militarists and Anti-Semits"
b) for Germans, it makes everything easy: One can hide behind the Nazis, and say "We Germans didn't want that, everything was done by a minority inside Germany, the evil evil Nazis".

Sure my knowledge about hungarian history has big lacks. I know a bit about hungarian "imperialism" towards Slovakia & Romania, I read a socialist book in german language called "Death of an Army" about the loss of a whole army in the aftermath of Stalingrad, and this book gives a (certainly not purely objective) view on some some things in that era. I'd love to read Tobaks book, but it exists in hungarian and french only afaik.

Do you have a good link about hungarian history in the 30ies& 40ies era?

To come back to german deliveries to its allies:
Slovakia got 109G-6 in 1944 only
Romania: bought 109E in 41, got 109G, HS129, Ju87D, Ju88 in 43/44 similar to Hungary
Bulgaria: 109G in 1944 only also
Even the Fins, who were always highly praised by the Germans, only got 109's & Ju88 pretty late.
So, this is pretty balanced I think.

See you soon!

[Csaba B. Stenge]

I never stated, that anyone got G-6's earlier. I wrote:"These mules were born, because the Nazis sold many times just the crap planes to Hungary (worn out F-4's, for example, when their units used G-6's in the same time and area...)" It happened exactly on July, 1943 in Kursk sector (the Germans flew G-6's there)

I wrote: early G models to the other Axis countries. The Slovaks, Romanians and Finns all flew G's in spring, 1943, only the Hungarians got F-4's (I did not mention the Bulgarians, who never fight against the Sovietunion)

So, it is not balanced at all (espacially not, if you know, that in Hungary, there was a significant Bf 109 production)

The Hungarians got the G-6 just in January, 1944.

[RT]

If Hungary was not an ally, it was so just a " customer", so they hv to buy what is available;
Concerning the BF109F, they are asked for "ausbildungs" models as stated on discussion in may 43,

Concerning the "nazi" nd other gracious terms, as the History hs been written for the last 60 years by Marxist's author, it's not necessary to speak about that, just rethoric, to hide 70 years of continuous murdering.

remi

[Csaba B. Stenge]

...

Thanks to enlighten me regarding Hungary's position and role in WW II.

[Dénes Bernád]

AFAIK, the Hungarians received the first used F-4Bs in December 1942, at the time when the Rumanians - the only other small Axis power heavily involved in combat on the Eastern Front - were still flying 'Emils' nearby Stalingrad.

As for the word 'Nazis', it refers to members of the National-Socialist ('Nazi') Party. Therefore, the usage of this overused adjective should be avoided by any serious historian in a military history context. The same is valid for the usage of the word 'Communist', too.

[George Hopp]

Your similar stories are wrong. You should compare the Hungarians to the Croats, Slovaks and Romanians, who all flew with G's in first half of 1943, when the Hungarians got still old, crap F-4's.

Were the 109Gs in early 1943 actually better than the 109F-4s? As I recall, the DB 605As were, relatively speaking, garbage, at this time; and the pilots probably had a better chance of surviving with the DB 601E than with the DB 605A.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád

AFAIK, the Hungarians received the first used F-4Bs in December 1942, at the time when the Rumanians - the only other small Axis power heavily involved in combat on the Eastern Front - were still flying 'Emils' nearby Stalingrad.

As for the word 'Nazis', it refers to members of the National-Socialist ('Nazi') Party. Therefore, the usage of this overused adjective should be avoided by any serious historian in a military history context. The same is valid for the usage of the word 'Communist', too.

Dénes,

The Hungarians received their first F-4's not in December, 1942. I mentioned 1943, when the Romanian flew with G-2's, when the Hungarian used still F-4's. And the Romanians flew with Emils in 1941 too, when the Hungarians used CR 42's in Ukraine.

I know very well, who were the Nazis. BTW I have many unpublished documents regarding the Hungarian-German military and economical relationship (regarding the aircraft businesses as well - significant number of the German functionaries, who worked in this line, were members of the NSDAP)

George,

IMHO between the F-4 and G-2, there was only a small difference, but these used F-4's had generally very old engines, with a lot of mechanical problems. I have many details about crashes, crash landings because engine troubles from this period (and the old pilots mentioned me additional ones, which not remained in the documents).