Consolidated flying boats

[BrianC]

Hi Johannes

Did you receive my PM?

Cheers
Brian

[igorrB]

Originally Posted by BrianC

My information implies that Villing and Carganico, although each claimed a GST on 11 JULY 1941, actually only brought down the aircraft commanded by St/Ljt Nickolay Talalkhin, who was killed together with his navigator; the other three members of the crew survived the crash and were captured. Villing's aircraft was then hit by AA fire and he carried out an emergency landing, and walked back to German lines.

According to my records, Villing had previously accounted for a BRM-2 flying boat on 2 JULY

Mombeek say Carganico's claim at 11.7.41 was I-16.
Correct last name of downed soviet pilot is Talalikhin. Also second GST was attacked by fighter and damaged slightly. Soviet sources say there was 3 Me-109.
Correct name for fl.boat downed 2.7.41 is MBR-2, not BRM-2

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Sorry to be so long in replying, only something strange happened. I replied about having the wrong date, it was actually 25th July 1941 whilst Villing was on a reconnaissance mission with Carganico, attacks were at an altitude of about 1200 metres. Villing states that he didn't see the third(his second) go down, but soldiers on the ground did.

Strange thing, my reply didn't come up on the thread(so can't view them), or the three replies I got to it, these are still missing this morning, but later ones have come up. Thanks to you all, even the fuel tank location was very helpful, it looks almost certain these were Catalina's of some variant.

Question to Russian losses expects is, do these losses make sense? Somehow I don't think it could be over-claiming as Carganico didn't seem to like Villing at all, he used to shout abuse at him, and Villing made matters worse by standing-up to him, and playing him at his own game. This can lead us to another query, Carganico had such a rage with Villing once that he follows Villing in to land, then lifts his undercarriage immediately after landing and bellies his Bf109 ! I think perhaps this is a mistranslation, looking at the Bf109 and the way the "legs" spread surely the weight prevented this?

So Brian, no I have not seen your reply, the last I saw yesterday was about the fuel tanks, which looking at the Catalina made sense to Villing's attack as the wings were on top of the fuselage, thus I believe Villing was talking about this and not between two engines on the same wing.

Grateful to you replies, even those I havn't seen.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[igorrB]

Where claims were made? Memoirs is very unreliable source and no matters, do Carganico like Villing or not. Chance to appearing of some civilian GST in big quantity is almost zero. Naval losses all documented. Also statement about "soldiers on the ground" is total false. I have all Heer documents and only plane they say about 25.7.41 is single "rata" (I-16). I think Villing forgot real date and say about 11.7.41.

[BrianC]

Hi Johannes

Here is a copy of my PM to you

I and colleagues are working on a book Air War over the Arctic: Defence of Murmansk and the Allied Convoys 1941-42. We're hoping that it may appear next year (I do have a contract). Hence the extracts from our draft below.
As you are aware, information re 1. and 14.JG77 is scarce, and anything that you may be able offer/contribute could prove invaluable and will be accordingly acknowledged.
I would be very interested to acquire a copy of Villing's letter re his and others operations. Would you be prepared to share?
Please reply to briancullauthor@gmail.com

Cheers
Brian

2 July 1941

The Soviet response to these attacks was impressive but relatively ineffectual. Both Liinakharmi and Petsamo were targeted, the first raid comprising five MBR-2s that took-off from Gryaznaya Bay at 17:30. Three more MBR-2s followed 15 minutes later. The flight was carried out at low-level to avoid detection before the lumbering seaplanes climbed to 14,000 feet to release their loads - a paltry six 50kg bombs each aircraft - over the port at Liinakharmi. But surprise was achieved and all aircraft returned safely with only minor flak damage. However, the second flight of three was intercepted by Bf109s and promptly shot down by Oblt Horst Carganico (two) and Uffz Martin Villing. In one seaplane Ml/Ljt Mikhail Chalov and his gunner were killed, while Ljt Sergey Abramov was able to bale out but was captured. All three members of St/Lt E.I. Tishkov's crew were killed in the second aircraft, while the third machine ditched and the crew rescued.

11 July 1941

The German offensive reached its height on 11 July. Fighters from both the Northern Fleet and 14th Army were again in constant action over the front lines. At 00:30 six SBs bombed troops, artillery and transports, while I-153s patrolled overhead. Three I-16s joined in and strafed the many targets, one aircraft sustaining minor damage from machine-gunfire. By late morning I-153s arrived to continue the aerial assault, followed by six SBs and then five GSTs (Catalinas) of 118-RAP/SF added to the weight of bombs being dropped. But by now three Bf109s of 1.Staffel had arrived in the area. Oblt Carganico claimed one of the seaplanes, as did Uffz Martin Villing. Only one seaplane was actually lost, a machine flown by St/Ljt Nikolay Talalkihin, who was killed together with his navigator; the other three members of the crew were captured. The seaplane crashed into nearby hills. During the mission Villing’s Messerschmitt was hit by AA fire. He carried out an emergency landing, following which he was forced to make the long trek back and eventually reached safety the next morning.

[edwest2]

Hello Brian,

Do you have 'Special Unit Album - Fighting On Every Front JG77' by Eric Mombeeck?

[BrianC]

Hi Ed

No, I wasn't aware of Eric's book. Thanks.

It's quite pricey - so is there much on the activities of 1. and 14.Staffeln June-December 1941 that will be of possible interest to me?

Cheers
Brian

[edwest2]

Sorry Brian, but I do not have it.

Best,
Ed

[Russell]

Hi Brian

I assume you are aware of the extensive information on the German Russian Archive sites? Outside of that there are some DEFE 3 references that provide some details on the zerstorer claim times and locations, but not enough to fill the gaps. I have not tried reading HW5 for that period, and its a long way to get to the TNA from down under.

Cheers

Russell

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Many thanks for your replies. I assumed that Villing's dates were accurate, but it seems not, moreover I wonder of his source. Just after his first claims he mentions three more "kills" two bombers and a fighter...…...that's quite vague, yet his first on 28th June 1941 and the second on 2nd July 1941 he goes into great detail. The next date he mentions is 5th July 1941 when he is awarded the Iron Cross first class, he then states that THREE DAYS LATER.....basically he clashes with Carganico and has a flying ban. The next day(9th July 1941)Villing states that he was grounded, but Carganico was airborne when their airfield was attacked, Villing was told by his z.b.V offizier to take-off, but Villing refused as he was "only allowed to take-off with Carganico's permission" Villing doesn't mention the date 9th July 1941, but says it was the day after his grounding which he say occurred three days after 5th July 1941. Then I do not understand his next statement too well, but he states that over the next few days he was more often in airbattles with Russian fighters, "which forgave themselves quickly" Sorry I only have a computer translation into English, but I would guess he ment "they had forgiven each other" ???
I am working on correcting/ the computer translation with Bernd Barbas, and I am missing at least a page, but just before his 25th July 1941 "Consolidated" adventure the paragraph ends "burns disfigured me. After 14 days I was fit again" Then a mention of a belly-landing, flaf, 100% destroyed e.t.c.

Brian I ask permission to share the letter with you, but don't know if Bernd has it on lone.

Kind Regards

Johannes