Severe Overclaimers Vs. Reliable Claimers List

[Laurent Rizzotti]

I have ever been doubtful about pilots claiming score of kills in some minutes. The probability of overclaiming is here in my own opinion more important, because I think most of these pilots just hit an enemy aircraft and immediatly chased another, thinking the first to be destroyed.

If you watch the record of Lipfert, he scored 3 victories in a sortie on 2 Dec 1943 (in 16 minutes), maybe 3 in the same sortie on 7 May 44 (one at 8h49, two at 9h40-45, may also have been two sorties) and 3 in one sortie on 19 July 44 (in 5 minutes). That is only 2 and maybe 3 triples on 203 claims (all known).

Now consider Rudorffer. He claimed 3 victories in one sortie on 7 Sep 40 (in 13 minutes), 3 on 19 Aug 41 (in 16 minutes), 3 on 21 Sep 1941 (in 15 minutes), 8 on 9 Feb 43 (in 22 minutes), 6 or 7 on 15 Feb 43 (6 in 15 minutes, one more 40 minutes later), 3 in the morning of 24 Aug 43 (in 7 minutes) and 5 in the afternoon (in 4 minutes), 5 on 14 Sep 43 (in 5 minutes), 7 on 11 Oct 43 (in 7 minutes), 13 on 6 Nov 11 (in 19 minutes), 6 on 7 Apr 44 (in 16 minutes), 3 on 28 Apr 44 (in 3 minutes), 5 on 3 July 44 (in 4 minutes), 6 on 26 Jul 44 (in 28 minutes), 3 on 27 Jul 44 (in 6 minutes), 3 on 17 Aug 43 (in 11 minutes), 5 on 25 Aug 43 (in 11 minutes), 4 on 6 Sep 44 (in 5 minutes), 3 on 17 Sep 44 (in 6 minutes), 6 on 25 Sep 44 (in 14 minutes), 7 on 10 Oct 44 (in 18 minutes), 4 on 22 Oct 44 (in 5 minutes) and 9 on 28 Oct 44 (in 10 minutes). I know 211 of his 224 claims, and of these 211, 120 or 121 were claimed in sorties where he made more than 3 claims.

By the way it proves nothing, Marseille has been studied in depth and was not an heavy overclaimer but claimed 82 of his 158 victories in sorties with 3 kills of more.

But without more data I will thrust more a pilot who claimed more often a small number of victories.

[Nokose]

Rob, After reading the Russian story of the 05Feb44 it sounds like Romm might have gotten at least 4 of the Bostons but without seeing Romm, Josten and Stroinigg's reports who knows. His 09:04 attack was probably the one fended off by the gunners of Rud's Boston who claimed a shoot down of a FW190. Hans Stroingg's attack hit when they had used up all there ammo. Don't know how that ratio would fit.

[Rob Romero]

Enjoy,

Rob Romero

[Klaus Schiffler]

The list contains no names of Soviet, Japanese or Italian aces who were notorious in their overclaiming.

[Rob Romero]

1) Keep in mind that my primary interest is Luftwaffe Aces.

2) The list is available for your edification, but it is also an invitation. If you have specific individuals/infomration in mind, please feel free to contribute.

[Rob Romero]

See Attatchment

-Rob Romero

[Mark R.]

I must admit to being intrigued by the GC II/5 war diary reference. The 31st Fighter Group, which apparently had "control" of all fighter aircraft at Telepte, recorded the following message dated 091450Z Feb 43 about the French squadron which it forwarded to XII Air Support Command: "Air Operation #5 - Nine P-40s of the Lafayette Escadrille led by Lt Tremolet, Up 1315, escorted four P-39s on recon mission. Eight P-40s down 1435, one a/c and pilot not yet returned. Pilots were Lt Tremolet, Lt Hebrard, Lt Boudier, S/Sgt Denaix (NYR), M/S Verrier, M/S Casenobe, M/S Graf, Bou Dabous [sic? Cannot figure that out - Borg?]. Four enemy aircraft dived on P-40s, followed by three others. P-40s at 5,000 feet, e/a at 8,000 ft. Lt Hebrard followed one FW-190 attacking a P-40, and was in turn followed by a FW-190 which overshot him and executed a climbing right turn. Lt Hebrard opened fire at this e/a at 125 yards, the FW-190 diving out of control, showing much white smoke and was seen to crash. The pilot did not bail out. Lt Hebrard claims 1 FW-190 destroyed. The balance of the e/a broke off and headed in the direction of Kairouan. One P-40 was found to be missing after the engagement, but circumstances are not known, the combat occurred between Djebel Hannekal and Djebel Chacerour. Report light flak near Sbikka. Our casualties one a/c and pilot NYR. Enemy casualties one FW-190. Weather broken scattered clouds at 5,000 feet, ceiling very high."

SECOND MESSAGE dated 091850Z Feb 1943 - "Reference todays report on Air Operation #5. S/Sgt Denaix reported NYR has returned 1745 hours. Slight foot wound. Will have PD claim on FW-190. Further report will follow."

Will have to admit the discrepancies are puzzling, but sometimes wartime documents are not updated. Seems that any link between a French P-40 squadron and a newly arrived USAAF Spitfire Group would be tenuous at best. But the only way the French could report to XIII Air Support Command would be through an American unit.

ONE ALIBI - Bou Dabous is near Cap Bon. I think the person typing up the report added the destination of the reconnaissance flight "to Bou Dabous" before typing in the last name of the French pilots. Then he got flustered and forgot to type in "to".

SECOND ALIBI - US report lists French pilots by abbreviation of US equivalent ranks: M/S = Master Sergeant and S/Sgt = Staff Sergeant.

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Mark,

The French pilots involved were:

Lieutenant TREMOLET
Adjudant-chef CASENOBE
Lieutenant HEBRARD
Lieutenant BOUDIER
Sergent-chef BORG
Adjudant-chef MORET
Adjudant-chef GRAS
Adjudant-chef VERRIER
Sergent-chef DENAIX

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[Mark R.]

Andrew, I can see where the Americans spelled a couple of names wrong. I guess that can happen even if you are on the same airfield. Many thanks. I am orienting most of my current research on mission reports with unit histories as a backup. I have found the former more detailed, especially in the case of the 1st, 52d and 14th Fighter Groups. THe 31st is not so bad at times and the 33d is not very well documented in the former category. I am looking forward to June when I can head back to the National Archives to begin collecting material on the 12th AF bomber groups, photo recon, and the observation squadrons.

Sincerely,

Mark

[John Beaman]

I do not know how many of you have read The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign, but it is worth a read. It is meticulously researched and written in an easy style despite all the detail. The author often matches up individual names in combat from both sides.

It is also intriguing that both sides, the JNAF, USMC and USN fighter pilots were consistently overclaimers, often by 50-75%. It is amazing to read how many claims for Betty" type bombers were made and credited and that so many damaged ones made it back to base considering its reputation as the "Type 1 lighter".