From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)

[Griffon]

Hello Denes!

as I found some time to read the first 15 pages of your new book, I do post some more comments, basically also a main question that bothers me since having read some of Christer´s books.

In the introduction, you mention the supposed obsolescence of a large proportion of the VVS equipment.

Christer on the other hand, in his new Midland title, quite clearly states, that compared to other air forces in 1941, the VVS planes compared quite favourably.
and after thinking a little more about this, I tend to agree with him.

planes like the I-16, the Pe-2, the IL-2 and even more so the Yak-1 were very good planes, compared to British types like the Hurricane, the Blenheim or even the Spit Mk V, being in use by the time, Barbarossa started.
even the SB-2 compared favourably with the Blenheim IMHO, and planes like the IL-4, DB-3 or even the Yer-2 were as good as Wellingtons or Whitleys, again IMHO.

that the VVS was slaughtered at the beginning of Barbarossa surely had not so much to do with a marked superiority of LW planes, tactics and pilot experience (and politics-many commanding officers were shot when they were considered not brave or aggressive enough IIRC) had a large part to do with that either.

so maybe we could start a little discussion about this topic.
was the LW really that much superior equipment wise?
Personally, I do not think so:

what do others think?

cheers
phil

[Juha]

Hello Phil
I generally agree with You with following exceptions, Bf 109F and Ju 88A were better than comparable Soviet aircraft and numerous I-15bis and R-5 a/c were obsolent.
IMHO SB(-2) wasn't as good as Blenheim, that was why Finnish AF equipped its Maritime sqn with them and not with Blenheims. Finns used both and Blenheims were used only in bomber sqns.
And IMHO Spitfire V was better fighter than Yak-1 or early versions of LaGG-3 but not markedly so. But Pe-2, DB-3F/Il-4 and Il-2 were good planes if one had good fighters to escort them.

Juha

[Franek Grabowski]

This is purely political bias of the author. Of course Soviet 'modern' designs were not as obsolescent as eg. Gladiator but they were not in in the class of Western aircraft of the period. One of the tricks is to compare aircraft of different periods. Yak-1 or LaGG-3 went into production at the end of 1940, so they should be rather compared to such aircraft like Mustang, Airacobra, possibly Fw 190. Also, Spitfire Vs were markedly superior to Soviet designs, as testified by successes of 57 GvIAP on Kuban in 1943.

[Dénes Bernád]

Very interesting and challenging topic. I will jump in later on.
However, it should be discussed in a separate thread in another sub-forum, not here.

Before that, let's remember that on the Southern Front there were no Yak-1s, Il-2s or Yer-2s at the start of Operation Barbarossa.

There were indeed so-called "new types" (e.g., Pe-2, Su-2), that were equal to most German types in service in mid-1941, but their number was rather small (IIRC, I even gave a percentage of about 25%). More in the new thread.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

This is purely political bias of the author.

Just to be clear, Franek, please mention which author are you referring to.

[Franek Grabowski]

Denes, you know that I am not referring to you!

[Nokose]

Denes, are these two books going to cover the areas of the Russian South and Southwest Fronts or just the Southwest?

Phil, since you read the "other book" and this one is more area focus, How does the Russian bomber offensive compare for detail?

[John Beaman]

I agree with Dénes and Phil that the subject of comparing USSR/other Allied and Luftwaffe aircraft on the eve of Barbarossa is a potentially interesting discussion. However, the current thread is discussing Dénes new book (congratulations BTW), so those of you who wish to, please start a new thread on the subject of aircraft comparisons. I would suggest the General WWII section rather than either Allied or Luftwaffe.

In the meantime, let keep this thread focused on Dénes' book.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Denes, are these two books going to cover the areas of the Russian South and Southwest Fronts or just the Southwest?

From the Soviet side, the books cover the action of mainly the Southern Front, obviously, and only incidentally the South-Western Front, in cases when there were some overlaps in the areas of action, or some Southern Front units - less pressed than their northern neighbours - went to help the hard hit SWF, particularly in late July.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Denes, you know that I am not referring to you!

Yes, I know, but others might not. That's why my request.