New Stuka book

[Jukka Juutinen]

Kutscha, you nailed it in one: I used the Pegg book as an example. Juha, you also nailed it in one. In case of the Hs 129 and Il-2, armour specs are vital to the discussion of the aircraft as both aircraft sacrificed a lot to get all that armour in. Pegg´s discussion on this is like one would write a 350-page on the Tiger tank and devote a few lines to its armour. Simply unacceptable. In short, I´d like to have aircraft books that would be modelled after John Roberts´s "HMS Dreadnought" volume in the AotS series.

[Dénes Bernád]

Most of the Hs 129's technical details Jukka et al. are looking for are simply not available any more.

[Jukka Juutinen]

In view of constant new archival findings I doubt that. I have been told that e.g. the Deutsches Museum archive has lots of unorganized techie documents that remain unexplored (e.g. a very interesting doc on Bf 109F wing stifness and aileron forces). But researching such stuff seem to over the head of authors whose life´s work is to determine if the Hakenkreuz was 603.6 mm or 603.7 mm wide. Things that no pilot, aircraft designer, mechanic, unit commander, general or corporal gave a rat´s a**.

[indianer1]

Maybe both combat operations and technical details are very difficult to squeeze into the same book for a weapon system which saw intense combat ? To take an example from books on the panzerwaffe, books on the Tiger and Panther are distinctly divided into two groups : combat operations/markings (books by Jean Restayn, Wolfgang Schneider, Eric Lefevre, various campaign books from Heimdal, the phenomenal books in French by Didier Lodieu, Thomas Jentz books on combat operations etc.) and completely technical tracts, sometimes by the same authors (Jentz, Spielberger, Andrew Devey). Even here, Schneider is clearly the combat expert whereas Jentz/Spielberger are technical gurus.
Jurliet's two books on the 262 and Lommel's two on the Natter probably fall into this category of separately looking operations and technical details, but, probably for obvious reasons, the operational books have a bigger market and are produced in higher quantities.

My 2 cents regarding author background - it does not matter as long as s/he is intellectually curious and willing to learn and be surprised. Engineering (in any sub-discipline) is not, repeat not, superstring theory, requiring great conceptual bandwidth and long period of incubation. Common sense and basic understanding of quantitative aspects would allow anyone to understand and interpret performance curves or anything else that rocks your boat. Remember, the ultimate engineering company, IBM, was rescued by a guy (Lou Gerstner) who sold credit cards and biscuits before he came to IBM.
Personal preference - give me Nick Beale, Christer Bergstrom, Jochen Prien, John Manhro any day who make history come alive and talk.

[Jukka Juutinen]

Well, unfortunately that common sense and basic understanding on quantative aspects seem to be missing some authors (and I don´t mean Pegg, Prien et al). Your example of armour books is a good one. The thing is that technical tank books are available along with operational books. Technical aircraft books are NOT available. What I would like to be repeated on aircraft is AotS equivalents or even something like Devey did on the Jagdtiger or Jentz´s Tiger trilogy.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen

In view of constant new archival findings I doubt that.

Very recently I was trying to locate the former Henschel archives, or part of it. Finally, I could trace down the current company in Kassel, which can be regarded as the successor of Henschel Flugzeug-Werke. The answer I received was that in the past 30 years that particular person was with the company (incl. HFW), he was not aware of the archive existing. Also, according to him, all older employees, who might know something, have died.
Unfortunately, a dead end.

Dénes

P.S. If anyone has a hint where to look further, I'd greatly appreciate it.
I posted on this very forum the same question, but unfortunately received no reply.

[John Vasco]

So here's another thread in which a certain person attacks Martin Pegg's 129 book. Well then, I have to hold my hand up and say that all that I have done is a piece of shit, because you won't find performance curves, strength of armour plating, factory photos, and all the other things the non-author says should be in an aviation book. Hell, I didn't even put in any of mine how many times Martin Lutz pissed up against the tailwheel of his Bf 110 before taking off for England, and how that piss affected performance! I should really have delved deeper to find out! Or whether any pilots stroked, cuddled, or saluted the Staffelhund before they took off, and what the effect on their flying performance this had! Jeez, I've been getting so much wrong all these years, and it has taken a contributor to this Forum to finally open my eyes. I will now concentrate on performance curves, thickness and effectiveness of armour plating, and the differing effects of pilots' rear armour, front canopy armour, its effectiveness at different speeds and different heights, in summer and winter (and Spring and Autumn too), the number of rivets on the fuselage, whether the thickness of the stencilling on the fuselage had an adverse effect on speed in level flight, a climb, or a dive. You know, I never thought to investigate the difference in performance between a retractable tail wheel and a static one - naughty, naughty me!!! In other words, do me (and most others on this Forum) a fuckin' favour and leave Martin Pegg, a respected author for decades, alone, and accept that he has produced a book that contains what HE wants to include, and which is also acceptable to his publisher. Aviation books are not targeted at half-a-dozen anoraks/rivet-fuckin' counters, but rather at the majority of those whom the publisher believes will buy their books. If what Martin Pegg produces is not quite to your taste, then don't fuckin' buy it. But don't come on here and run the man, and his efforts, down. To do so, which you have done, is the act of a total prick, in my opinion.

End of.

[Jukka Juutinen]

Funny me but I thought personal insults were against the rules of the forum? And if I may add Johnny boy, your books do not claim to be type monoghraphs, which Pegg´s book does.

[John Vasco]

Jukka,
Personal insults? You should have remembered that a long time ago. That's a bit rich coming from you, of all people on this Forum!!! I recall from a previous thread that you said Martin Pegg's 129 book was not worth the paper it was printed on (or words to that effect - I do not have the verbatim statement to hand). If that's not a personal insult, then I don't know what is!
And I still stand by what I said: "If what Martin Pegg produces is not quite to your taste, then don't fuckin' buy it. But don't come on here and run the man, and his efforts, down. To do so, which you have done, is the act of a total prick, in my opinion."
I don't claim anything for my books. They are simply research, and then publication. And they contain mistakes. And they are incomplete (as is every book on WW2). Some people may like them, others may think they are a load of shite. Personally, I don't care, because there are more important things in life than Luftwaffe books. But there is no excuse whatsoever for denigrating another person, or their efforts, which you have done in the past.

[Christer Bergström]

personal insults were against the rules of the forum

Of course personal insults - i.e. unfair and wrong accusations - is not allowed here.

Jukka, of course you are not a fool who demands things which you didn't know was impossible to find?

Now since the well-versed author and Hs 129 expert Dénes Bernád took some time to contribute to this interesting thread, and told us that he has been looking for exactly the kind of material for precisely the Hs 129 which you say should be in any aircraft book, you owe Dénes - and all of us - to describe exactly where all the material is to be found which you say unconditionally should be in any aircraft book (and specifically a book on the Hs 129), namely:

Some examples of material which should have been included: armor specs (i.e. hardness, strength, chemical composition), performance curves, detailed drawings on construction features, handling reports (e.g. from Rechlin), production line photos showing various stages of assembly

You see, if you fail to inform us exactly where it is possible to find the material which you specifically demanded should have been in Pegg's book, I am afraid that most people here will think that John Vasco is right that you are just a jealous fool who babbles about things you know nothing about only in order to get a cheap shot at the serious researcher and author Martin Pegg. So please show us that John is wrong, and don't delay your answer.

(I still am a bit surprised that you failed to list even a single Luftwaffe aircraft book which gives all the information which you said should be in any Luftwaffe aircraft book. I asked you to list ten such books, and I had expected you to list ten such books. Personally, I have never during 30 years of reading found even one such book on any aircraft of any country during any period, but you are the expert, Jukka, so please don't forget to give me those reading tips too.)