659 IAP KOLDUNOV

[Paul Thompson]

Hello Gabor,

Thank you again for taking the time to share your information!

Do you think the new fighters like the Yak-3 made things significantly worse for the Axis air forces? The Soviet and Russian sources that I have been able to access tend to emphasise the performance of their new types, yet there are still plenty of mentions of Axis aircraft escaping in a dive or using engine boost, which suggests the German types retained a performance margin.

I understand that many things will be forever unknown because of the loss of documentary evidence, but I get the impression that the claims for ‘Doras’ and ‘Condors’ can be largely discarded, because there is no mention of such planes operating in Austria or Hungary in 1945. Thank you for pointing out that Veselovskii was flying a Yak-9U, that shows how inconsistent the myth-making is! Were there many other Yak-9U units in the area at the time?

The information about the combats in early March is very interesting. Do I understand you correctly, only 1 Yak-3 and 1 Bf 109G were lost in the combats involving Yak-3s across the 2 days? Perhaps the Soviet claims were high because they felt the need to compensate for the heavy Boston losses. You are right that the fighting was heavy, a modern Russian book on the battle reports the loss of 165 Soviet tanks and self-propelled guns in 10 days of fighting around Balaton. Considering it claims German losses of “around 250”, the quoted Soviet losses may even be an underestimate.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[HGabor]

Hi Paul,

I think it is very hard to determin how newer fighter types changed the battles. Number of planes and combat experience of the pilots was still a main -if not the most critical- factor in combat. Surprise attacks, position of the sun, etc. Regardless of side, large number of rookies vs. the ambush of just a few veterans could result huge losses even on the very best planes in a few minutes.

As far as I know only the 151. GvIAP flew the Yak-9U planes in the region having only minimal loss rate. Some other units also got re-armed with newer models, eg. 809. and 995. ShAP received IL-10s, handing over their old IL-2s to their fellow regiments in their division.

Gabor

[HGabor]

Sorry, I missed: on March 8 and 9, 1945 many more planes were lost in combat with Yak-3s, but their number cannot be determined for sure. Different reports say different claims, mainly Fw 190s.

The reason for the unusually heavy battles(*) and Germany's last panzer-offensive during WWII in the Lake Balaton area in March, 1945 was the Zala oil-fields in SW-Hungary as the last main fuel source of the Axis.

The late snowfall and the foggy weather over the 17 VA airfields and op. area forced the VVS HQ. to use the 5 VA divisions to cover the ground forces of the 3rd Ukrainian Front in the Southern sectors.

Gabor

______________________________________________
(*) Approx. losses of the 17 VA eg. on March 14, 1945:

18 IL-2m3, IL-2KR
4 La-5FN
1 Yak-9D
2 Yak-1b
9 A-20 Boston (2 A-20B, 7 A-20G)

[Paul Thompson]

Hello Gabor,

I see your point! I suppose it was too late in the war in any case for either side to pay detailed attention to the tactical influence of new aircraft. Possibly the surviving Axis pilots

I didn’t know about the IL-10 deliveries, it’s great to talk to a specialist! I’ve found this small bit of information about 151 GvIAP, it’s surprising that the regiment jumped from the Yak-1 to the Yak-9D and then the Yak-9U within 2 months. There’s also a sad story at that link of a run-in with Smersh:

http://www.aviajournal.com/arhiv/2005/05/10.html
С 8 марта 1945 г. полк переукомплектован самолетами Як-9у.

Thank you for the clarification regarding losses, the numbers for for the 14th are quite awful! Were many 190s actually lost, in comparison to Soviet claims? It looks like the offensive caused the Soviet side real trouble, their losses were much bigger than anywhere else along the Eastern front. I’ve looked at my friend’s notes from the book about the ground battle again, 48 new SU-100 self-propelled guns were lost at Balaton, which must be more than in any other battle in 1945.

It’s surprising the VVS was caught out by snow and fog, since it was usually the Axis that complained about those things. Did the Germans and Hungarians have better quality airfields in the area?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[HGabor]

Thanks Paul, great article! Yes, гв.мл.л-т Ляшин Иван Иванович was downed on April 16, 1945 in his Omsk-built Yak-9U, S/N: 42166063, engine: 437-716. 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151. GvIAP, 3. ea.

It is true, his regiment changed plane types very fast, but this does not mean they used only a single type of plane after a date. Usually new and old planes (and models) flew together in mixed flights until the old model was gone. So there was a specific transition time. Bad weather certainly affected all sides, not just the Axis.

On March 10, 1945 the 17 VA eg. lost only 1 IL-2 (S/N.: 18784100), while on March 14, 1945 they lost 18!!!! Spring weather helped missions...

During the final German tank offensive of WWII in March, 1945 the key word was: OIL. They wanted to keep the Zala oil-fields until the last bullet, so they brought tank forces even from the Western Front to push the soviets back in the Lake Balaton area, protecting the much needed oil. (6. Panzer Army, 501, 509. heavy SS panzer-division, etc.) The Panthers, Kingtigers caused huge losses among the soviet Su-76s, T-34s, Shermans, etc. Both the 5 and 17 VA tried to stop the advancing German tank forces and they also paid a very high price.

When the German offensive finally failed at Lake Balaton, the Axis resistance basically collapsed in Hungary and the rapidly advancing Soviets took the Austrian capital, Vienna very soon in April, 1945. See many great photos of destroyed German tanks in the Balaton area in March, 1945. Some of them were destroyed by the 5 and/or 17 VA planes:

http://www.battlefield.ru/photos/cat...oyed-afvs.html

Gabor

[Paul Thompson]

You’re welcome, Gabor! It’s quite a coincidence that the article refers to one of the 2 Yak-9U losses you mentioned above.

You make a very significant point about transition time. Quite possibly the use of several types simultaneously made the maintenance situation worse and this also contributed to lower serviceability when the weather closed in. It must have been difficult to maintain the new engines Yak-9Us along with the old engines of the previous Yaks.

I see that the spring made heavy fighting possible, yet I would have expected that the Axis air forces would be overwhelmed by superior Soviet numbers. Instead, I’ve gained the impression from the data you provided that the Soviets had great difficulties in the air. On this topic, I’ve managed to dig up the total loss figures of 17 VA for January 1945 from the same notes I mentioned before. The losses were quite heavy – 241 aircraft: 47 La-5, 140 Il-2, 14 Bostons, 30 Yaks, 3 Pe-2 and 4 Po-2. Do you know the summary losses for March 1945? It would be very interesting to compare the two!
You are quite right to note that the Germans threw a large proportion of their remaining armour into the Balaton fighting. It is incredible that they did so in precisely the same area where they had conducted three separate Konrad offensives throughout January. I think that the Soviets would have suffered far more had the Germans been able to surprise them. For example, The SU-100 units were only made available in the area as a response to the January fighting, so the Germans made things much more difficult for themselves by not altering the offensive plan.

The link with photos is excellent! Do you think some of the tanks destroyed by air attack were hit by PTABs? I do not know how PTAB damage should look, so I am wondering if you have an idea. More generally, it seems that modern Russian historians like to display the results of the battle, because the book I keep referring to is full of various images of destroyed Axis equipment, which add to the ones you linked to. In fact, the images are the reason that I have the book, Google Translate doesn’t help much with reading a whole text! Here’s a link to the book’s description:

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/4556060/
Разгром 6-й танковой армии СС. Могила Панцерваффе
ISBN 978-5-699-34808-4; 2009 г.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[HGabor]

Thanks Paul,

We do have it, but it still would take lots of time to collect the data for the losses of the different soviet AC types in 1944-1945. Now I just put together the Douglas A-20 Boston losses of the soviet 5 and 17 VA between 12.1944 – 05.1945. Note that the 5 VA (2nd UF) used only A-20G models, while the 17 VA (3rd UF) used A-20B,C,G,J, and UA-20C trainers. Later they used A-20K as well. Both the 5 and 17 VA used the Bostons as their ONLY official daylight bomber plane. (Pe-2s were only in Recce. units, Po-2s flew in the night, or as messenger, medical planes, etc.)

Permanent A-20 Boston bomber losses of the soviet 5 and 17 VA (2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts in Hungary)

December, 1944 losses – (Battle for Budapest, - mainly 5 VA)
5 VA:..........................................17 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 7, AAA: 5, Accident: 5)
17 VA:.......................................... 5 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 3, Accident: 2)

January, 1945 losses – (German Konrad I-II-III offensives for Budapest, DFS 230, Ju 52, He 111 etc. airlift to Budapest, Pest side fallen on January 18, 1945)
5 VA:........................................... 5 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 1, AAA: 2, Accident: 2)
17 VA:..........................................15 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 10, AAA: 2, Accident: 3)

February, 1945 losses - (Budapest (Buda side) fallen on February 13, 1945 - Catastrophic Axis breakout from the soviet cyrcle with almost complete loss)
5 VA:..........................................NONE! !!
17 VA:..........................................3 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 1, Accident: 1, Other: 1)

March, 1945 losses (Last German Panzer offensive of WWII near Lake Balaton)
5 VA:.......................................... 5 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 2, AAA: 3)
17 VA:.........................................20 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 7, AAA: 9, Accident: 3, Other: 1) – Koldunov’s 866 IAP heavy battles near Lake Velencei and Balaton

April-May, 1945 losses (Mainly in Austria and Cz / Slo)
5 VA:.......................................... 9 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 3, AAA: 4, Accident: 2)
17 VA:.......................................... 6 A-20 Bostons (Airfield accident: 4, Other: 2)

Gabor

[Paul Thompson]

Gabor, thank you very much for that!

I’m awestruck by the level of detail and comprehensive nature of your data, and slightly embarrassed that I can’t share anything similar! Do you plan to publish a book about these battles? I'm sure that many here would like to read a great study of this still under-researched topic!

It's noteworthy that the Boston units flew a mix of sub-types just like the fighters, probably because Hungary was remote from Soviet supply bases.

The loss figures you provided add up to 84 Bostons lost, subdivided as follows - Dogfight: 34, AAA: 25, Accident: 21, Other: 4. Out of the 34 Bostons lost in air combat, 17 VA lost 20, which suggests its fighter escorts were ineffective. Were any of the bomber Bostons used as auxiliary night fighters? I think that some modified A-20Gs operated in this way during the siege of Breslau, but I haven't read the same about Budapest.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[John Beaman]

Very good work Paul and Gabor! This kind of posting(s) is what this board is all about. You are both to be commended.

BTW are you related to Eva?

[HGabor]

Thanks. As of the night fighters, none of the 5 or 17 VA Bostons were modified for that purpose. They were all 4(+) crew-modified bombers, including the standard A-20Gs, which were originally built for a crew of 2, or 3. All 5&17 VA Bostons were modified with a nose navigator/bombardier cabin and even many of the new A-20Gs were reverted to older A-20B or -20C versions for better visibility from the nose. Only the latest A-20Js and A-20Ks were put in service intact. 17 VA had only 2-2 A-20J and A-20K models in 1945, - that's it. 5 VA had a single A-20K-11 (44-148) in 1945.

In the Museum we have huge amount of data on 5 & 17 VA indeed, (plane & AC engine serial-numbers, loss reports, crew lists for all Bostons, IL-2s & fighters), but its primary purose is to identify recovered planes to return the fallen soldiers to their families after 6-7, or more decades, via the Embassy of the Russian Federation in Budapest. Books (in English) for the most honored International Public may come later, but at this point it is not our primary goal. Our main goals are our recovery projects and co-operation with our Russian researcher friends and partners.
A BIG Thanks and credit to them for their help!!!!!!!!!

Gabor