Luftwaffe Loss ...a P38 Lightning

[Snautzer]

Ebay p-38 german markings crashed https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...3#post-1548916

[Maciej Góralczyk]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hello,
Just to perhaps reopen this thread, I recently saw in a book on Italian P-38's a picture of the first one that was captured. Front right forward nose shot, shows four numbers on the nose that end with 76, Is it possible to match the "76" to a Serial number ?

Excellent observation! What you see is Lockheed Construction Number which does refer to USAAF serial number. The number on the photo appears to be 7167, which, if I count correctly, indicates a P-38G-1-LO s/n 41-12733.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Maciej Góralczyk

Excellent observation! What you see is Lockheed Construction Number which does refer to USAAF serial number. The number on the photo appears to be 7167, which, if I count correctly, indicates a P-38G-1-LO s/n 41-12733.

Don't know which photo you refer to, but the four digit numbers on the Lightning noses usually refer to the USAAF s/n.

There were two Lockheed c/n 7167,
first one 222-7167 which was 42-12733 (not 41-12733)
second one 422-7167which was 44-26163 (a P-38L-5). If it was converted to a F-5F/G is unknown to me.
I also thought all F-5A (based on the P-38G) were built as such from the beginning, ie no conversions later on meaning 42-12733 stayed as a P-38G.
But I might be wrong there.

If the nose carries 7167 as you suggest, I would say it rather indicates a J-model 42-67167.

What ever the case a good picture would probably settle it one way or the other
Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Thank you both gentlemen for the swift response.
It was "??67" so could be 7167 as Maciej suggests.

So-
If it is 7167(Maciej's) then it was 42-12733.

Which landed in error at Capoterra on 12th June 1943 that is believed to have become T9+XB.

Your thought's ?
Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

....and where is the photo?
Cheers
Stig

[Maciej Góralczyk]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Don't know which photo you refer to, but the four digit numbers on the Lightning noses usually refer to the USAAF s/n.

There were two Lockheed c/n 7167,
first one 222-7167 which was 42-12733 (not 41-12733)
second one 422-7167which was 44-26163 (a P-38L-5). If it was converted to a F-5F/G is unknown to me.
I also thought all F-5A (based on the P-38G) were built as such from the beginning, ie no conversions later on meaning 42-12733 stayed as a P-38G.
But I might be wrong there.

If the nose carries 7167 as you suggest, I would say it rather indicates a J-model 42-67167.

What ever the case a good picture would probably settle it one way or the other
Cheers
Stig

Lockheed construction numbers recorded with small digits on the nose can be seen throughout the entire production run, I've seen them on Js as well - in such cases the last digits of the USAAF serial number are sometimes superimposed with large digits over the small c/n - see example here: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/21474


The photo in question might be found in 'Ali Straniere in Italia vol.6' p.7 and Avions No.210 p.24 (perhaps also in other sources, but I have these two publications at hand). It clearly isn't a J or L as it does not have the chin distinctive for these versions, nor a recon variant.

Now it would be useful to check the IARC for 42-12733 - does any US-based member would be so kind to call the AFHRA and request the file? Unfortunately, it usually takes them around half a year to handle requests sent by email.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Gentlemen,
So sorry my error, just found my bit of paper where I wrote down the number. I was ??67" as Maciej said.
I have edited my earlier post.
Yes I think that that was the book that Maciej has mentioned.
And to confirm that it was "small" numbers 7167 think would have been in yellow on camouflaged surface

322-7167 which as pointed out by Stig was 42-12733,

P38G-1
Contract AC21217, a/c serials 42-12687 - 42-12766.
322-7121 - 222-7200
Total of 80 a/c.
Not an F-5,
They were -
F5A-1
42-12667 - 42-12686 (7101 - 7120) 20 a/c which were ex P-38F-5's.
(ref: Roy Cross Lightning by Kookaburra).

I have looked on line at 1st,14th and 82nd FG's aircraft numbers but could not find a match. IIRC the pilot was made POW and was with the 82nd FG, can you confirm this please ?

Alex.

[Stig Jarlevik]

[quote=Maciej Góralczyk;313556]Lockheed construction numbers recorded with small digits on the nose can be seen throughout the entire production run, I've seen them on Js as well - in such cases the last digits of the USAAF serial number are sometimes superimposed with large digits over the small c/n - see example here: https://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/21474


The photo in question might be found in 'Ali Straniere in Italia vol.6' p.7 and Avions No.210 p.24 (perhaps also in other sources, but I have these two publications at hand). It clearly isn't a J or L as it does not have the chin distinctive for these versions, nor a recon variant. /QUOTE]

Ah yes, one of those. Indeed a Lockheed c/n. However whenever you can view a complete aircraft, that is see both the tail number AND the nose number, they basically always correspond. I have plenty of those.

Also looked in my copy of Ali Vol 6 page 7 and I agree it is a Lockheed number and not a USAAF s/n. Only the digits 67 are readily visible. 7167? Could well be. The date of the US loss is said to be 12 June 1943.
Looking in MAW 4 they have a 3 PRG ('P-38' s/n unknown) flown by 2/Lt Hartle as lost that day. Aircraft captured and pilot POW.
Since the aircraft in the photo is not a PR version, the question arises, did the PRGs also have pure fighter aircraft at their disposal?
The Italians further complicate the situation by stating (on page 69) "that USAAF archives reveal s/n 43-2439 was reported missing (that day I presume) but no details are given about the unit and the theater of operations". The booklet also connect this aircraft to the German T9+XB.

I don't have any P-38/F-5 IARC but I have looked at many others, and it is rare indeed for any of them to mention any unit.
Again I agree it would be interesting to see the cards for both of them, but 43-2439 should correspond to c/n 322-3548 and that is certainly not what we can read on the nose of the aircraft!

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Just for info and ref.
From Roy Cross's book.
More possibilities.
Early P-38 and F-4 @ F-5's "67's".

P-38D - 40-796 - 122 -2267
P-38E - 41-2249 - 222- 5467
P-38F - 41-2349 - 222-5567
P-38F-1 - 41-7540 - 222-5667
P-38F-5 - 42-12633 - 322-7067
P-38F-13 - 43-2058 - 322-3167
P-38F-15 - 43-2158 - 3267
P-38G-1 - 42-12733 - 322-7167
P-38G- 5 - 42-12824 - 322-967
P-38G-10 - 42-12922 - 322-1067
P-38G-10 - 42-13034 - 322-7467
P-38G-10 - 42-13133 - 322-7567
P-38G-10 - 42-13333 - 322-7667
P-38G-10 - 42-13437 - 322-7767
P-38G-10 - 42-13527 - 322-7867
P-38G-15 - 43- 2258 - 322 - 3367
P-38G-15 - 43- 2558 - 322-3667
F-4- 1 - 41-2149 - 5367
F-5B-1 - 42- 67356 - 1867

Alex

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by edNorth

Look at cowling, NOT G-model (that was same as P-38F), but is JKL version.

Back to drawing board please.

Don't know which photo you are looking at Ed
But the one which carries "71"67 on the nose is certainly either an F or G.
Certainly not any J-L which had the much larger chin-radiator.

Cheers
Stig