Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Alex,

Schleinhege's claim was in Courland, Latvia, while Kalden's was near Warsaw.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[researcher111]

Regarding your two cents , if you determined tht 177 GvIAP was located on
Oct 14,44 South West and close to the Romanian border at Crvena Crkva
and Lt.Houghton last MACR known position was 15 miles SW of Budapest while Bell and as
you stated was 450 Km apart ( pse state the source of your info ) , that would narrow down
your search, though 15 miles SW of Budapest wasn't that close to Shadrin's unit either.

However on The American Beagle Squadron, 52nd FG in WWII ,
The 15th AF against the Axis, Checker Tail Clan , Stalin's Eagles first edition
332nd FG in WWII and 15th AF in WWII history books the
details are conflicting one an other and I'll still stick by Bell's
theory unless relevant facts can be brought up and prove otherwise.

While is worthwhile researching further, I am lacking
the time for deeper study neither the subject is on my
area of research .

A final note as into the Chetniks, suggest you read
a book callled "The Forgotten 500 " is all in there.

[researcher111]

Gabor

Thanks very much for the clarification

[Boris Ciglic]

F/O Bell was seen to bail out by 2/Lt Duke. Both 2/Lt Mann and 1/Lt Houghton were last seen in flight near Budapest, but no one from their units saw them actually crash. Please take look at the map and all locations in question.

[researcher111]

Which maps ? if you connect it to the MACR , then review my
previous msg that MACR's do not count as final historical
evidence ,most of them had to be updated in the post WWII
era.

[Boris Ciglic]

I fully agree with your observation that locations from MACR's should not be counted as final historic evidence. I know for instances when the reported and actual crash locations were hundreds of kilometers apart and when the last sighting of a plane was reported over Austria and the plane crashed in Albania.

In 14 October 1944 case, we know that Mustang groups started from area of Foggia and Termoli in Italy (52.FG from Madna, 325.FG from Lesina and 332.FG from Ramitelli).

We know that 52.FG was supposed to escort B-24's of 55.BW to Blechhammer (today Blachownia Slazka), but when the bombers aborted, received instructions to fly a sweep in the area of Balaton lake in Hungary and in this rough area Leary was shot down and became POW and Mann was last sighted.

We know that 325.FG was escorting B-17's of 5.BW on a raid against Blechhammer. They were supposed to take over the bombers on retour leg west of Budapest. Before they did that, Houghton aborted and was last seen.

We know that 332.FG was escorting B-24's of 49.BW and 304.BW on a raid agaiinst Odertal. First leg of the 332.FG journey was Ramitelli - Zagreb. If you pull a line between these two location, on Google map for example, you will find that it passes closely to Cazin, roughly the area where Bell bailed out. If you look at the same map where Bela Crkva is, you will see that there is almost no chance that the group could have strayed so much off course to get over there. If you pull a line between Lesina or Madna, Budapest and Bela Crkva, and when you add a Danube as an landmark between Budapest and Bela Crkva you will see that a Mustang could have veered off course and come above Bela Crkva, especially if it was trying to reach Soviet lines in the southeast.

[researcher111]

Your observations are correct and I appreciate your good knowledge
of the 15th Air Force operations in WWII. If the events evolved as you described
then by no means Bell would have met Shadrin , this as much as into
the fixed hinds . Though the variable hinds remain and persist and the case
remains pure speculations . Here are the variables ;

1. The last known position of Lt.Houghton the single one who may
come in question and as correctly assumed by Alex Smart was 15 miles SW of
Budapest , this is the aprox place he either crashed or bailed out. According
various Russian material at my end on Oct 14,44 Shadrin and his wingmen
were by no means near Budapest area, in addition the distance between BK
and Budapest plotting a direct air line between both locations would be some
400 Km or more. Only from Oct 27, 44 and on the 177 GvIAP was operating over
Balaton and moved its base near Balaton by no means ready to operate near or over
Budapest area .

2. Unless the Russian history is wrong and Shadrin unit may have been closer
to Budapest which at this point I fully exclude ,I don't see it working because
their ground controllers won't scramble their fighters 400 Km's away.

3. Why would the Russian archives and historians still cite Bell rather an other
pilot or an other FG ? why on various 332nd memoires same rumours
exist ?

4. If Shadrin & wingmen and as you stated earlier on received a QDM to the *enemy"fighters
( no radar vectoring at that time ) then the Soviet GCA controllers would have later on
discussed the details with the Americans such as on similar incidents between
Capt King and Koldunov in 1944 and Koshedub versus 44-73144 later on in 1945
the 332nd FG would have been excluded .

5. From 1946 through 1949 US Graves Commission was very active in the Balkans
searching for remains and plotting crash sites , interviewing whitnesses etc ,why
then the remains of Lt.Houghton's aircraft and his body were never found ? This
unless the P-51 exploded in mid air something which sofar neither Shadrin ,US
sources nor ground German sources & local whitnesses ever reported.

[Boris Ciglic]

For question No.1, I wish I knew, but, that's one of the purposes of this forum, to try to find some answers

For question No.2, 117.GvIAP was at Crvena Crkva at the time for sure.

For question No.3 I think that at one point someone (possibly Igor Seidov) connected Bell and Shadrin, it was published and the story got a hold.

For question No.4 I can only assume, since general Andey Vitruk and his staff knew well what happened, and no one on US side knew anything about it, they decided to keep silent and it was like it until Shadrin told his wife about it and she said that to Igor Seidov, who was first to publish this story (as far as I know). Speaking of the 7 November 1944 incident over Niš, Red Army suffered huge casualties at the hands of 82.FG and it is understandable why the Soviets raised the matter so high.

For question No.5, they simply might have not known that they should have looked for Houghton near Bela Crkva. They interviewed thoroughly the locals, but the 14 October 1944 incident was a Soviet matter. At the time, Yugoslav (Partisan) authorities in the area were almost non-existent and the Red Army was out of any Yugoslav jurisdiction anyway. Maybe it is connected with question No.4 and all the evidence could have been removed.

[researcher111]

Lt.Houghton was lost near Budapest area but not 400 Km's or more
away near Romanian border , on Oct 14,44 there were no Russian
troops near Budapest to hide evidences related to the crash site but
German troops which in the post WWII era were more
than happy to help the US Armed Forces Europe, neither VVS ground
controllers would scramble their fighters 400 km away just because
theere were some sentiments around. As such the whole remains pure
speculation and Bell theory persists with a worse case scenario that
Shadrin lied ,didn't shoot anyone down but a bird of some kind he
may have dreamt of whle resting between the flights.

I don't see any connection between Oct 14 and Nov 7, totally different
circumstances .

[Boris Ciglic]

Please note that no one saw Houghton crash near Budapest. He was last sighted near Budapest. And the incident over Niš occured threee weeks later.