Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd

[Spitfire 9]

Hi VoyTech !

Thanks for that, you are right.

I have since found several publications which feature this aircraft including 'Spitfire at War' Alfred Price, which shows a close-up shot from exactly the same photo I have.

There is also an air to air shot in 'Spitfire Remembered' Philip Moyes.

Mervyn.

Originally Posted by VoyTech

It is probably EN133, featured in several publicity photos taken when No. 611 converted to Mk IXs. Although EN133 FY-B was lost over France (S/Ldr J.H. Slater killed, Rodeo 188 on 14 March 1943), it is definitely not the aeroplane in the photo we are discussing here.

[Fairlop]

It is probably EN133, featured in several publicity photos taken when No. 611 converted to Mk IXs.

... and taken during various periods as we can see from the art below the cockpit. White blank disc was later completed with the art (Churchill ?).

Michal

[Jennings]

I'm still desperately seeking a clear photo of the round badge that EN133 carried below the windscreen on on the LH side. In the one fuzzy photo I have I can also convince myself that there may be a name painted on the fuel tank armor plating, angled up at about 45 degrees. The photo is just too fuzzy to glean more detail.

Anyone know of a better photo of this a/c?

JH

[Andy Saunders]

As Voytech pointed out much earlier, this has an "external" type armoured windscreen which excludes the possibility that this is a Mk IX and also excludes SOME batches of Mk V's.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Andy,
Thank you for the heads up re Voytech's post , I overlooked it.
From the list I placed in an earlier post, (now corrected and serials added ) If the Presentation a/c are left off then we have the following a/c-pilots left.
P7774 IIa - Pennings - 28-4-41 - In sea ?
R7209 Va - Pollard - 22-6-41
R7349 Vb - Buys - 24-6-41
R7277 Va - Feeley - 8-7-41 - NKG
W3325 Vb - Johnston - 9-7-41
P8539 Vb - Hemingway -10-7-41 - NKG
P8581 Vb - Dexter - 14-7-41
W3257 Vb - Lock - 3-8-41 - NKG
W3567 Vb - Lamb - 16-8-41 - In sea -NKG
W3227 Vb - Roper-Bosch - 21-10-41 - In sea
W3515 Vb - Smith - 21-10-41 - In sea - NKG

Of the above the following were
Penning - Dutch
Buys - Dutch
Feeley - RNZAF
Dexter - South African
Could the sleeve insignia have some reference to these men ? For example did the Dutch aircrew wear the Orange triangle marking on their sleeves and if so did it matter which way up it was ?

Also with regard to the a/c camouflage pattern, can it be cleared up if it is "A" or "B" pattern ? and would this be the reason also that the "FY" is aft on the fuselage side rather than forward was that the general practice ?

Only Pennings above has an even number.

All for now
Alex

[VoyTech]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Also with regard to the a/c camouflage pattern, can it be cleared up if it is "A" or "B" pattern ? and would this be the reason also that the "FY" is aft on the fuselage side rather than forward was that the general practice ?
Only Pennings above has an even number.

Not sure what you mean. IIRC all Mk Vs were built after the 'B' pattern was dropped, so they were all 'A' pattern by default.
Also, I don't think Dutch airmen wore any nationality ID on their sleeves other than the regulation shoulder patch.

[Alex Smart]

Hello VoyTech,
Thank you for the reply.
Yes you are correct, from January 1941 on production lines only Scheme "A".
The question was about the "FY" squadron code being before or after the fuselage roundel and if the camouflage scheme had any bearing on it. This if so would I thought help with the aircraft serial number, as it could be an odd or even number.
The question is now longer relevant due to your reply. Unless it is Pennings IIa in the photo ? But still it would not help as the number is even so scheme "A" anyway.

Also with regard to the airmans sleeve Natioality ID patch. It just looked to me to be an inverted triangle and I wondered if, as these would have been hand sewn on by the airman themselves, if they may have sometimes sewn them on inverted.
You say the only Nationality ID was the shoulder patch.

Again Thank you
Alex

[VoyTech]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

But still it would not help as the number is even so scheme "A" anyway.

Don't recall about this particular number, but the rule wasn't that simple. In some production batches it was 'B' scheme on even serials.

You say the only Nationality ID was the shoulder patch.

I'm sure Dutch experts are more qualified to answer that but I think when you're in uniform you wear what you're allowed to and I don't think allied personnel were allowed to wear any other national emblems than the regulation shoulder patches.

[Alex Smart]

Hello VoyTech,
Perhaps I was not clear in my question and responce.So please bear with me.

Originally I put the question
"with regard to the a/c camouflage pattern, can it be cleared up if it is "A" or "B" pattern ? and would this be the reason also that the "FY" is aft on the fuselage side rather than forward was that the general practice ?"

[example A/c seen with port side fuselage codes FYOB and also seen with port side fuselage codes BOFY].

You replied correctly that
"IIRC all Mk Vs were built after the 'B' pattern was dropped, so they were all 'A' pattern by default."

I then responded with
"Yes you are correct, from January 1941 on production lines only Scheme "A".
The question was about the "FY" squadron code being before or after the fuselage roundel and if the camouflage scheme had any bearing on it. This if so would I thought help with the aircraft serial number, as it could be an odd or even number.
The question is now longer relevant due to your reply. Unless it is Pennings IIa in the photo ? But still it would not help as the number is even so scheme "A" anyway."

[Pennings a/c was a Mk.IIa serial P7774].

You have now said
"the rule wasn't that simple. In some production batches it was 'B' scheme on even serials."

With this latest reply are you still refering only to mk.V's ? as this seems to contradict the 14th January 1941 edict that ALL future Spitfires had "A" scheme camouflage only. OR do you perhaps suggest that Pennings a/c had the "B" type camouflage pattern ?

I in no way wish to upset or to labour the point but am just trying to arrive at a way to ID the aircraft in the photo by offering ideas as to how perhaps to go forward and arrive at the ID.

All the very best
Alex

[VoyTech]

Alex, I referred to the Mk II you mentioned. At the time when 'A' and 'B' were still used alternatively on consecutive aircraft there was no rule saying "'A' on even serials, 'B' on odd serials". In some Mk I/Mk II batches 'A' scheme was applied to aircraft with even serials, in other batches it was 'B' scheme on even serials. To know what scheme was applied to a particular early Mk I/II you need to know the rule that applied to that particular batch.
After 'B' scheme was dropped altogether it became immaterial whether the serial was even or odd - it was always 'A' scheme.