22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)

[hautemarnechris]

Thanks Larry. I shall put the photos up tomorrow.

The Bodenorganisation info is interesting - it looks as though III./Jg 3 were using Pocancy as a dispersal field (see Nick's post) when based in the Chalons area.

Vraux and Plivot were both active pre-war and were in use by the RAF and the French in 1939/40. Vraux was reactivated, enlarged and used as a dispersal field in 1944 by the Luftwaffe. Plivot wasn't used by the Luftwaffe according to the Vraux museum people. Perhaps the Luftwaffe built a new airfield south of Tours-sur-Marne to replace Plivot but continued to call it Plivot - that could explain why Tours-sur-Marne isn't mentioned in the Bodenorganisation but Plivot is. Does the Bodenorganisation give exact locations for the airfields?

I've written to the curator at Vraux asking him to double-check what he and others told me about Epernay-Plivot airfield.

If it turns out that Plivot was in fact rebuilt post-war further west of the village of Athis (to become modern Epernay-Plivot) then I think it's fair to assume that the Wikapedia entry is a red herring - it's actually talking about wartime Plivot rather than the airfield at Tours-sur-marne which the USAAF named Athis (A-76) when they took it over from the Luftwaffe in late August 1944.

[Larry deZeng]

I must confess, sadly so, that I have never seen the Bodenorganisation maps in person. They were on my list the last time I visited BA-MA in Freiburg, but my two-week stay there came to an end before I could get to them. However, footnote/source/bibliography citations for them appear in various books such as:

Mattiello, Gianfranco. Fliegerhorstkommandanturen und Flugplätze der deutschen Luftwaffe 1935-1945. Osnabrück: Biblio Verlag, 2000. Pb (oversize). 529p. Glossary of abbreviations. Appendix. Index.

My sense is that these maps will only show a tiny triangle, which is the German map symbol for an airfield, and the name written next to it. This is on a 1:500,000 or 1:1,000,000 scale map so the location is imprecise.

There are also RL 40/Kart Aufmarsch der fliegende Verbände maps for 2.7.44 and 31.8.44 that might show these airfields, but often airfields with no flying unit occupancy at the time were omitted from the maps.

I think we have made reasonably good progress on this so far given the lack of documentation on the German side.

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Hello Everybody

[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 7951[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]Attachment 7952

here are the pictures I took at Vraux aviation museum.

1. Combat report from Obgefr. Dorn of II./Jg 3 (same one as mentioned in the post which started this thread, I think) Dorn refers to Tours-sur-Marne as a 'Feldflugplatz' if that's significant. According to most sources -including Ultra - II./Jg 3 had left "Athis"/Plivot, etc a day earlier so perhaps Dorn was detached to Jg 76 which took over from II./Jg3.

2. Combat report from 354th Fighter group for 22nd August saying that it destroyed 8 Bf109s shortly after they took off from an airfield 5m East of Epernay (ie Tours-sur-Marne). By the way, the 4 a/c destroyed on the ground were at Beauvais (see next exhibit). The report doesn't mention the loss of Brassler's aircraft (unless I've missed something which is possible). The attack is probably the one referred to by the SOE agent at Bouzy. It seems to me that he was claiming credit for something that was the outcome a routine fighter sweep by the 354th; also, the "extermination" he describes is massively exagerrated and were suffered by Jg 76 rather than the Udet. I think I'm right in saying that Jg76 reported large losses shortly after the incident (will need to check this in my copies of the Ultra signals).

3. War diary of 354th Fighter Group which mentions the 22nd August incident and describes Tours-sur-Marne as "a new grass airfield"

4. Map showing location of Tours-sur-Marne airfield and position of runway

5. Aerial photograph of Tours-sur-Marne airfield taken 15th Aug 44 . The location is consistent with the airfield plan, the Ultra signal describing it as being between the river Marne and the railway line and the US engineers report for Athis (A76) I posted earlier. The date it was taken suggests that the airfield wasn't known to to the allies until then and may have been the outcome of information supplied by the SOE agent at Bouzy (but that's just a charitable guess).

The Vraux museum curator confirms that Plivot airfield was NOT rebuilt and moved further east after the war. Also that neither Plivot nor Tours-sur-Marne had concrete runways. So it looks as though the Wikapedia entry for Athis is complete fiction. Next time I visit the area I shall speak to the mayor of Athis village just to double-check that because there remains a small doubt about this in my mind. Does anybody know how to contact the contributor of a Wikapedia entry? - I'm reluctant to edit it myself without speaking to the contributor first (just in case).

Unless anybody has new information to add I think we've gone about as far as it's possible to go with this.

Chris

I've just reviewed the post - sorry that the thumnails are a bit scattered - don't know what happened there.

[Larry deZeng]

Nice job, Christ.

The Dorn after-action report refers to the airfield as a Feldflugplatz. The generally accepted English language translation for this is field airstrip. Feldflugplätze would be established or designated during times of movement (advances, retreats) and had no permanency. They were exclusively for use by short-range aircraft, i.e., reconnaissance, fighters and ground attack. All that was needed was a level field approximately 500 meters in length. They were almost always returned to agricultural use after the aircraft and ground staff moved on. The 354th Fighter Group report refers to it as "new".

It looks to me from your map of that area that there is just one airfield that has been referred to by three names: Plivot, Athis and Tours-sur-Marne and maybe even a fourth, Pocancy.

What is your interpretation of this? Is there really just one airfield, or are the others not shown on the map?

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Thanks Larry.

The simple answer is that I don't know. Assuming that the names used in the Ultra decrypts were given in clear in the original signals then the following is my best shot (if they weren't in clear then we would have to rely on the decoders always matching the airfield codes to the right airfields which makes the problem even more difficult)

1. My belief is that Pocancy is not relevant. According to your Bodenorganisation sources it was active and as Nick pointed out Ultra reports an unteroffizier posted there on the 19th August. So we should assume it existed and was in use - possibly by III/Jg.3 which was based near Chalons - as a landing ground without services (like Vraux) available to any unit which wanted to use it. However, it was relatively distant from Plivot,Tours and Athis (but not too far to be a dispersal airfield for Plivot).

2. I'm 95% certain that Tours-sur-Marne and Athis were one and the same airfield. And that it was a dispersal field for Plivot. The only evidence for the Luftwaffe calling it Tours-sur-Marne is Dorn's combat report. I believe the Germans called it Athis because that's what appears in the Ultra decrypts and in other sources (including I think J. Prien's books which are considered to be authoritive). The field is marginally closer to Athis village than it is to Tours-sur-Marne town. Therefore, it seems reasonable to have called it Athis. (which is what the Americans did when they took it over). The fact that it doesn't appear to be in the Bodenorganisation list of airfields is a problem for which I have no solution because the evidence that it was in use by the Luftwaffe in Aug 1944 is overwhelming. Perhaps it was in use for too short a time to make it into the Bodenorganisation.

3. The status of Plivot is more difficult. We know it existed pre-war and it still exists now - apparently in the same place. It is referred to several times in the Ultra reports - but sometimes as Plivot-Athis. It's also appears in your airfield intelligence summaries. My guess is that "Plivot-Athis" was the Tours-sur-Marne airfield the details of which I included in my previous post, ie it was a dispersal field for Plivot.

The Vraux people say that Plivot was not used by the Luftwaffe because of its open position. That's where I have doubts. Perhaps it was in use until the allied breakout made it too vulnerable to fighter-bomber sweeps. Its functions were then transferred to the newly built Athis/Tours-sur-Marne airfield. Remember the Ultra signal from Jg 27 to Jg3 saying that Athis was servicable for landing on about 10th Aug? - perhaps that's when Plivot closed down and was superseded by Athis/Tours-sur-Marne (which might explain why it doesn't appear in the Allied airfield intelligence summaries you posted). The only other explanation is that the Luftwaffe built the Athis/Tours-sur-Marne airfield much earlier to replace Plivot but continued to call the new airfield Plivot.

A lot of perhaps. Tomorrow I'm going to the National Archives to look at AIR intelligence files about airfields in France. There may be a clue there. I shall also go back through the Ultra decrypts I have and see if there's a time-line pattern to the Plivot and Athis references which might corroborate the idea that Plivot was in use until mid-Aug and was then superseded by Athis/Tours-sur-Marne.

A slightly baffling problem but I shall let you know what if anything I discover.

Cheers Chris

[hautemarnechris]

Larry - I just re-read your post. The map does not show Plivot airfield because it is situated to the south of Plivot village beyond the southern edge of the map. Ditto Ponancy which is even further to the south. If you look at Google maps in satellite view you'll see what I mean.

Cheers

Chris

[Larry deZeng]

Okay, your recapitulation has sorted this out and removed a lot of the smoke that was obscuring the target for me. With Plivot and Pocancy now out of the way, we are down to one airfield vying for two names: Athis and Tours-sur-Marne, which you explained very cogently.

I do know that the Germans were always looking for nearby pieces of land that not only had a straight and level field for take-offs and landings of the right length, but that also had dispersal capability such as a close at hand grove of trees or a woods that could be used to conceal aircraft. So if a wave of P-47s approached Plivot and found it empty, and the pilots failed to detect the new dispersal field or satellite nearby because of the absence of aircraft (which were concealed among the trees) and the absence of tire tracks that would indicate an active airstrip, then they would fly off none the wiser. So did you notice the presence of a woods near Athis/Tours-sur-Marne when you visited? That one variable alone could have been the reason the Germans established Athis/Tours-sur-Marne in summer 1944 as a dispersal field for Plivot. In a word, potential concealment for aircraft.

I'll refrain from further speculation and await the results of your findings at BNA (PRO) Kew. Good luck!

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Hi Larry

If you compare the aerial phototgraph of Tours-sur-Marne/Athis from 15th August 1944 to Google satellite you will find that the location of fields, woods etc today is surprisingly similar. By the way, the aerial photo is orientated West at the top and north at the right. The long straight line running top tobottom is the railway line.

Tours-sur-Marne/Athis is bordered by dense woodland on its northern edge. Things have not changed much. However, in 1944 there are some tracks into the woodland which do not exist today. I assume they were service roads of some kind - for example, to aircraft dispersal points in the woodland.

So, for exactly the reasons you give, Tours-sur-Marne/Athis airfield was probably built as either an alternative to Pivot or as a dispersal field for Plivot. The Vraux museum curator says that Plivot was not used by the Luftwaffe because Plivot was, and still is, located in open farmland where it's difficult to conceal aircraft from those pesky Mustangs. In comparison, Tours-sur-Marne/Athis was bordered by woodland where aircraft and materiel could be better concealed.

Now, just to really confuse things even further. Last night I started looking again at the Ultra decrypts. A signal to II./Jg 3 on the 17th August mentions Tours-sur-Marne; the same signal copied to III./Jg 3 mentions Pocancy. The signal is about evacuating stores - presumably as part of the transfer to the Reich. There is another related signal the following day. What do you make of these? [ATTACH]Attachment 7955[/ATTACH]

Chris

[Larry deZeng]

Yes, Christ, I agree about the woods and I think your rationalization is right on the mark.

As for the intercepts, the first one is a signal of 18 August from JG 3 to the quartermaster (supply) branch of II. Jagdkorps that gives the fuel requirements for each component of JG 3. The fuel was to be delivered to the specified locations. The unstated operation referred to is either a mission or the fuel was to move the units to the stated locations or on to their next destinations. I could not determine which message was sent first, but I don’t think it matters for our purposes.

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Hi Larry

I spent yesterday at National Archives trying to nail down the Athis/Tours-sur-Marne/Plivot issue. I looked at airfield lists (Air40/2915 (july44 supplement to June list) ,2916 (1942 list) .2917 (1941 list), 2918 (June44 list) and Ultra decyrpts (HW5/556 August 10th 44).

The solution to the problem we have been discussing can be found in those files. I should have looked at them earlier - it would have saved me a lot of time.

It seems that there are some red herrings out there in published sources.

"Plivot" is referred to as "Epernay-Plivot" in the official British airfield lists. In the June 1944 list (and in the July supplement to the same list) "Epernay-Plivot" was not believed to be in use by the Luftwaffe (see thumbnails attached).

Athis had several alternative names as follows: "Tours-sur-Marne" "Bessuil" and "Athis". It came into use in August (see thumbnails attached) probably on the 10th when Jg27 reported it as operational. According to Ultra, Jg 27 had been ordered to arrange the reception of Jg 3 in the Chalons area.

"Pocancy" (see thumbnail attached) was believed to be in use by the Luftwaffe (from 10th August it seems to have been occupied by elements of III./Jg 3 - according to several Ultra decrypts over several dates).

An Ultra decrypt of the order to transfer Jg3 to the Chalons area (T271/17 of the 7th August) has a comment attached by the analyst to the effect that the airfield codes used in the signal were ambiguous. That is, the analyst couldn't be certain which airfields in the Chalons area the codes referred to. Several possibilities are mentioned including Bisseuil (one of the alternative names for Athis). My interpretation of this is that the confusion arose because (1) the Athis field was still under construction and a consistent code hadn't been defined for it (2) the allies' own lists had several alternative names for it.

I shall edit that very annoying and inaccurate Wikapedia entry for Athis. It might be a good idea to contact the source publishing allied airfield lists you referred to in earlier posts, and ask for a correction to be made in later editions. The Bodenorganisation maps/lists you mentioned were probably never brought up to date because the field at Athis was only active for less than three weeks.

So far as I'm concerned the above information closes the issue. However, I must say I've developed a taste for airfield archeology detective work. Particularly those in the Chalons area. Would you (or anybody else) be interested in a joint project with objective of finding all the airfields in the Chalons area and which Luftwaffe units were based there in 1944. The curator has offered to take me to the site of the old Athis/Tours-sur-Marne field where apparently there are still relics of its occupancy. I shall mention the project to him if you or anybody else is interested.

Finally, I'm not sure if there any copyright issues around posting jpegs of NA documents here. I don't want to lose my NA reader access so I shall delete the thumbnails once you've had a chance to look at them. If you would like copies let me know and I'll send them to you privately.

All the best

Chris