RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled

[Cpt_Farrel]

To get the full picture you can't just study the documents and official orders, but it's equally impossible to use the findings on wrecks only. Even if you have found hundreds of wrecks it's still a much too small percentage to speak in general terms. Just because the green on that Fw190 matched John Deere Green doesn't mean it was and it certainly doesn't mean that it was "the green" used by the Luftwaffe in the east as there must have been several.

Also, it's as far as I know not certain were these aircraft were repainted, they may just as well have been painted in Germany or at a depot far to the rear were use of unauthorized paint would have been unacceptable. I. and III./JG3 for example deployed with their aircraft painted up in a very special scheme that was done in Germany.

/Anders

[Pilot]

harrison987- do you have info where and on what relics were present any of paints you mentioned?

[Oberst]

I was thinking.. Green is a secondary color that is created by mixing two primary colors--yellow and blue. If the yellow pigments faded, that would leave a blue hue.
The blue would may be darker, may be lighter.., depending on what other hues are mixed in. Hard to say.

[Pilot]

Oberst- green is in most cases based on chromium oxide green pigment then you have other options like black and yellow mix, black and ochre mix and as you say, blue and yellow. If you see any US Pacific airplanes you can note that dark blue can much fade out. As well there is cans found out, there is remained documents as well many relics, I am sure that in deep research can give full answer on colors. Did anybody try to do spectral analysis of the preserved paint samples?

[edNorth]

Them old pigments are not the same as used today. A fact few remember, I think. Look it up. Them Luftwaffe (exteriour) paints were Epoxy based, that crack and crase like hell and adhere poorely. Not really bad quality as stated earlier in this thread. High quality stuff used the wrong way (in my opinion). Epoxy is likely heavier than Oil based paints (as used on US and British planes) that were more "flexible" but faded real quick. The pigments faded but not carrier base (Epoxy) on Luftwaffe aircraft, that cracked and crased, and collected dirt real quick. I likely never have seen a photo of a "super-clean" Ju 88, except before assembly and flight (and perhaps a prototype)!

I have several samples of original Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF paints on some pieces of alumin and have used these for my drawings.

[Pilot]

Originally Posted by edNorth

Them old pigments are not the same as used today. A fact few remember, I think. Look it up. Them Luftwaffe (exteriour) paints were Epoxy based, that crack and crase like hell and adhere poorely. Not really bad quality as stated earlier in this thread. High quality stuff used the wrong way (in my opinion). Epoxy is likely heavier than Oil based paints (as used on US and British planes) that were more "flexible" but faded real quick. The pigments faded but not carrier base (Epoxy) on Luftwaffe aircraft, that cracked and crased, and collected dirt real quick. I likely never have seen a photo of a "super-clean" Ju 88, except before assembly and flight (and perhaps a prototype)!

I have several samples of original Luftwaffe, RAF and USAAF paints on some pieces of alumin and have used these for my drawings.

I have interview few times one craftsman here who was foreman for paint shop and they use German paints in aircrafts manufacture. They used enamel based and nitro based paints. Most of parts were ditch into bath of paint during production. Only external camouflage was spray painted with nitro paints. Each paint had its own procedure and mix ratio with thinners. They have pot and they measure time of paint leak from pot (with hole at bottom). Testing of color was made on metal sheet samples before it goes into production.

Epoxy was discovered in 1930 but I am not sure that paints are used that fast (thank you for info). My knowledge goes that first use is reinforcing of fabric on control tabs but there was used phenolic resin. The same resin was used in Yugoslav pre war industry and first product ever completely made as composite was US trainer Timm N2T.

Thank you for info and sorry for a bit off topic.

[Oberst]

Hello edNorth,

Can you point me to the source of Luftwaffe planes painted with Epoxy & the pigment differences? When you talk about cracking and crazing, the only time I see that is IF the surface isn't properly prepped, or ACRYLIC is used with non ACRYLIC paints/primers.

[edNorth]

Oberst: I think my reference to Epoxy (Resin) versus nitro-enamel paint is found in (shomewere) in K Merrick & J Kiroff "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1933 - 1945" (Classic Colours).
- Certainly the sample of RLM 71 (from Ju 88 D-5) I have in my posession physically feels as Epoxy (thick and brittle!) but has touches of RLM 02 or similar as overspray, altogeather some three or four layers on one Stkz. letter overpainted with unit letter and that also overpainted with (possibly "wellenmuster") or downtoning for overwater flight (not RLM 72/73, only gray overspray simulating naval colours I think).
- But then there is lots of colour discussion in Merrick/Kiroff book. A recommended reading for all.
- Pigment references is from memory: that Old Humbrol paints were using pigments from an factory that was sold to China afterwards, and someone (Museum) was able get correct pigments from there and make enough for repaint of a restored aircraft.
Having ex- 40+ years of (Luftwaffe & other) modelling under my belt knowlegdge is there, but finding the exact referance again is sometimes harder. I too read that todays pigments were designed after the war and they fade slower (are artificial pigments for giving the colour to the paints)

[Oberst]

Thanks for that, I'll look into purchasing that book. But AFAIK, the RLM regulated the use of as pilot said, nitrocellulose lacquers (clear) with added pigments (colours) & thinners, not epoxy. The Zinc Chromate used on bare metal surfaces was almost clear, with a slight tint of green.

Cheers

[Kari Lumppio]

Salut!

The most used Luftwaffe paints were not epoxy nor nitrocellulose.

Flieglack 7012 and 7122 were both based on phenol resin ("Phenolharzverkochung in aromatischen Kohlenwasserstoffen") and Flieglack 7155 was based on polyvinylchloride ("Polyvinylchlorid und Antimon in aromatischen Kohlenwasserstoffen").

See documents: http://www.rlm-farben.de/en/products...-coatings.html
(Kiroff paints)

Phenol resin is inherently flame retatrdant. Antimony addition probably does the same for the polyvinylchloride.

Of course there was other paint systems used on Luftwaffe planes. Although I certainly do NOT remember any epoxy paints. It would have been poor choice anyway because it chalks easily outdoors. Compare some modernish sailplanes like SZD Jantar.


Cheers,
Kari