Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

[HGabor]

Hi Folks,
On October 26, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 76 GvShAP lost Il-2m3, c/n: 9743 (Shapovalov+) to flak.
16 VA, 234 IAD, 157 IAP lost Yak-3, c/n: 1811 (Batov+)

Gabor

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Hi Folks,
On October 26, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 76 GvShAP lost Il-2m3, c/n: 9743 (Shapovalov+) to flak.
16 VA, 234 IAD, 157 IAP lost Yak-3, c/n: 1811 (Batov+)

Gabor

Hello Gabor, thanks to help to the work.

Yes, the 1 GvShAD lost a Il-2, but they don't fly at 11h to 11h30 (german times), then concerning the luftwaffe's victories it's doesn't match. From my memory this days the 4th VA loosed only one Yak-9

Concerning rhe 16 VA, she operated in the Warsaw aera.

The question could be asked for the 4 VA, including few divisions (of memory, the 233 ShaD and the 309 IAD (LA5/Yak3/YAk9)) operated in the NW of Augustow. that is to say at the hinge between the 1st VA and the 4th VA

[HGabor]

Yes, 16 VA, 157 IAP Yak-3, c/n: 1811 was lost at Warsaw-NE, ~27-30km indeed.

Interestingly Yak-3, c/n: 1711 (the previous plane on the assembly line in batch No.11 in the Saratov factory) was flown by Capt. Koldunov (Post-war Chief of the Soviet Air Defense) at this time in the 17 VA in Yugoslavia, participating the infamous Nis incident with American P-38s of the 82 FG.

Gabor

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by HGabor

at this time in the 17 VA in Yugoslavia, participating the infamous Nis incident with American P-38s of the 82 FG.

Gabor

wouldn't it be rather on November 7 that the 659th IAP of the 288 IAD shot down 4 P-38s in Serbia?

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/proarm/n...083e7d9f7a96cd

[Courtois Laurent]

October 27, 1944

The Luftwaffe claims 6 victories today.

Ltn Leonhard Färber 3/JG52 La5 25561 at 200m - Hardtek (7 km NE Goldalp) 13.35
Ltn Leonhard Färber 3/JG52 La5 25561 at 2500m - Hardtek (7 km NE Goldalp) 13.39

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25529 at 1200m (Dakehnen – 10 km N Goldap) 14.15

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25533 at 3000m (Ballupönen-25 KM SE gumbinnen) 14.23

Oblt Rudolf Trenkel 2/JG52 Yak3 25583 at 800m. (Goldap) 15.10
Ltn August Rieckhoff 2/JG52 Yak3 25586 at 1500m. (Goldap) 15.11


Losses of the 1st VA: 1 Il2 (311 ShAD) destroyed by the Flak (from a tank), 1 Yak-3 (1st OIAP "Normandy") and 1 Yak-9 (909 IAP, 130 IAD) shot down by the air force enemy, and 1 Yak-9 (909 IAP, 130 IAD) and 2 La5 missing (of the 330 IAD).

At first reading, there are therefore 6 Luftwaffe claims for 4 Soviet losses. Let a ratio of an overclaiming rate of 33%

Now let's look in detail at the Soviet losses.

The 303rd IAD to a Yak-3 of the 1st OIAP "Normandy" (Cptn Cuffaut) shot down by enemy aircraft and 1 La7 reported missing (Ltn Rakov, 523 IAP) during 5 dogfights. 2 wins 1 me-109 and 1 FW 190.
1st OIAP "Normandy": 3 aerial combat, Captain Cuffaut, following an aerial combat judged by some to be imaginary, parachutes during a mission carried out between 5:10 p.m. and 5:50 p.m. 8 km from Goldap. This incident does not correspond to any German claim, the overclaiming rate therefore increases to 50%

523rd IAP: On a mission from 8:25 to 9:00 a.m. Ltn Rakov on an La-7 or La-5, not finding foggy terrain to parachute into. This loss cannot therefore be attributed to the Luftwaffe, so the overclaiming rate now reaches 66%.

The 129th IAD protects the operations of the 182nd and 277th ShAD, not encountering enemy aircraft. No Losses

240th IAD: no encounter with enemy fighters. No loss.

The 130th IAD have 1 Yak-9 lost in aerial combat and 1 other missing, during two aerial combats. She claims 2 victories 1 me-109 and 1 FW 190.
909 IAP:
From 4:35 p.m. to 5:23 p.m., Yak-9s of the 909th IAP carried out an Il2 protection mission of the 956 ShAP in the Gross Dunaïken sector (20 km south of Goldad) Graboven (16 km south of Goldap). At 5:20 p.m. at 7 km SW of Goldap (Torfbrukh) a fight took place with Me 109s and two planes (Ltn Mïots and Safonenko) were reported missing, according to the crews of the Il-2s, one of the pilots parachuted in.

Oblt Rudolf Trenkel 2/JG52 Yak3 25583 at 800m. (Goldap) 15.10
Ltn August Rieckhoff 2/JG52 Yak3 25586 at 1500m. (Goldap) 15.11

Note 1: It's not that easy to "avoid yakolevs with radiators"

Note 2: In the same sector at a close time, since he took off at 5:10 p.m. to perform the Goldap, Gumbinnen, Stallupönen circuit, Captain Cuffaut was "dejected". Nevertheless, in a typewritten account (countersigned) from the time, of which I have the original, Captain Cuffaut reports having heard the Soviets before the fight signal the presence of enemy aircraft. Which seems to indicate that the claim relates to a Yak-9 of the 909th IAP.

330th IAD: carries out 6 flights to protect the reconnaissance of the 117 OPKAP which carries out 2 missions of artillery fire corrections.
-609 IAP: The regiment in the period 13.00-16.40 flew to escort 4 Il-2 to photograph the front edge of the enemy defense in the Goldap-Gubenen area. A total of 13 sorties were flown, with 9 hours 50 minutes of flight.
Drop the tasks.
In the targeted area, ZA and MZA came under fire.
Enemy air combat losses shot down 2 FV-190 aircraft.
There are no losses and losses of IL-2.
7 La-5 in the period from 15:50 (SU) to 16:40 (SU), flew to escort 2 Il-2 to often photograph the edge of the enemy defense in the Griboven (?)-Stulgen (Hasenrod) area. The mission ended in the area of ​​Fresten (Flesten 7 SE from goldap?) and was met by 6 FV-190, with which they were on the h-3000 mt. An aerial battle began, which lasted 10 minutes. in the region of Tuttenen (?) . As a result of air combat at a distance of 80-120 meters from the second burst, S-Lieutenant Maidanik shot down 1 FV-190, which fell in the Wilhelmsberg area, the second FV-190 was shot down by a foreman who Kushnerov, fell in the Tuttelen region.

(The report being handwritten, some toponyms could not be identified)

In all likelihood the pilots of 609 IAP clashed with those of III/JG52.

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25529 at 1200m (Dakehnen – 10 km N Goldap) 14.15 (GER).

Ltn H-J Birkner III/JG52 LaGG 25533 at 3000m (Ballupönen-25 KM SE gumbinnen) 14.23 (GER).

161 IAP: carries out missions of protection of the bombers of the 6th Gv BAD in the Stallupönen-Pillkallen sector. No encounter with the enemy. Two planes landed at nearby airfields (possibly the La-5s reported as not mission income.

927 IAP: No information available.

The 311th ShaD at 1 Il2 destroyed by the Flak.

1 Gv ShAD - 240 IAD: The morning weather in the area was bad: overcast, H-50-100m. , visibility 1-2 km. A pair took off at 1:52 p.m. for weather reconnaissance. The cloud cover had increased slightly, but it was still impossible to work in groups.
Performs attack missions in the Pillkallen sector from 4:45 p.m. to 5:50 p.m. No Loss.

311 ShAD - 130 IAD, Performs from 15:50 to 17:20 attack missions in the sector south of Goldap. 1 Il-2 shot down by a tank.

277 ShAD – 129 IAD, Performs from 8:00 a.m. to 5:12 p.m. attack missions in the Gumbinnen sector, Alt Katenau, Pillkallen. no loss

182 ShAD: two weather reconnaissance flights, no losses.

Conclusion: For this day the overclaiming rate seems to be at 66%. To be 100% certain, it would be necessary to be able to identify the adversaries of Ltn Färber of JG52. Nevertheless, there is a very low probability that his two victories are corroborated by Soviet archives.

Intermediate balance sheet from October 22 to 27, 1944: for 46 victories claimed by the Luftwaffe, 4 were confirmed by Soviet losses. This leads to an overclaim of 91%, however, it is possible that this figure is reduced by possible interactions between the units of the Luftwaffe and the 4th Soviet VA.

It is also highly probable that if Laurent RIZZOTTI continues to have the sympathy of us to share his work on German losses, we will arrive at such a very high rate of overclaiming among Soviet pilots and especially among French pilots of the Normandie-Niemen.

[Courtois Laurent]

October 28, 1944

The Luftwaffe claims this day 1 victories.

28.10.44 Oblt. M. Eberwein, 1/JG52, 1 Yak9, 25566 at 500m. (10 km WNW of Goldalp) 06.08


1st VA Losses: 1st Army reports no losses to date and claims 1 Hs-126.

Identification of Yak-9 attacked by Oblt Eberwein:
- 303rd IAD: First flight, from Yak at 6:30.

240th IAD: no encounter with enemy aircraft.

The 130th IAD

909 IAP: 8.40 at an altitude of 800 mt. in the southwestern area of ​​Goldap ml. Lt. Volkodav (Yak-9) conducted an air battle with 2 Me-109s after several attacks, enemy aircraft left the battlefield. Combat flights were canceled due to poor weather conditions.

Despite the time difference (6:08 a.m. to 6:40 a.m.), it is quite possible that the fight was the cause of the claim:
28.10.44 Oblt. M. Eberwein, 1/JG52, 1 Yak9, 25566 at 500m. (10 km WNW of Goldalp) 06.08.

Conclusion: The claim of the day is overclaiming.

Intermediate balance sheet from October 22 to 27, 1944 : for 47 victories claimed by the Luftwaffe, 4 were confirmed by Soviet losses. This leads to an overclaim of 92.5%.

[HGabor]

On October 28, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 136 GvShAP lost Il-2m3, c/n: 1872370 (St.Lt. Zachidulin) in an accident. Plane broken.

Gabor

[Courtois Laurent]

October 29, 1944

The Luftwaffe claims 1 victory today.

Hptm Wilhelm Batz Stab III/JG52 Lagg 25278 – 1000 m 14:18


Losses of the 1st VA: This day the 1st Air Army recorded the loss of two aircraft, an Il-2 shot down by the Flak and 1 La-5 missing.

At first reading, this seems to agree with a Lagg claimed by the Germans and another declared missing by the Soviets.

Now let's look in detail at the Soviet losses.

The 303rd IAD is the only unit to have lost a plane this day according to the report of the 1st VA, but this division does not declare any loss, the flight log of the division indicates that all the planes having taken off this day returned and the monthly report of the 523rd IAP, does not report any loss of aircraft this day either in combat or in accident.

523rd IAP: no loss recorded today.


240th IAD: (Yak-3 and Yak-9) carries out 2 aerial combats without result during the protection mission of the 1st Gv ShAD.
900 IAOKP: perform protection missions of 74 Gv ShaP, two dogfights between 6 Yak-9 and 5 Me 109.

The 130th IAD: 1 fight without result today according to the report of the 1st VA.
168 IAP: Made 12 cover flights of 953 ShAP, no encounters with enemy aircraft.
409 IAP: No war mission due to bad weather conditions.
909 IAP: No war mission due to bad weather conditions.

The Division's report again disagrees with that of the 1st Air Force.


Hptm Wilhelm Batz of Stab III/JG52 could have fought against Yak-9 of the 900th IAOKP. To be sure, the time of the fighting would have to be found in the Soviet reports. If so, note again the generic use of the Lagg appellation.

Conclusion: For this day the overclaiming rate seems to be at 100%.

Intermediate balance sheet from October 22 to 29, 1944: for 48 victories claimed by the Luftwaffe, 4 were confirmed by Soviet losses. This leads to an overclaim of 92%, however, it is possible that this figure is reduced by possible interactions between the units of the Luftwaffe and the 4th Soviet VA.

[Courtois Laurent]

0ctober 30 and 31, 1944.

October 30, No claims for the Luftwaffe no loose for the soviet in aérial fight, two Il-2 destroyed by Flaks.

October 31, No claims for the Luftwaffe no loose for the soviet.

[HGabor]

October 31, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD, 74 GvShAP lost Il-2m3, c/n: 18710102 (Lt. Sheglov, unhurt) to flak. (Note: not on October 29!)
Gabor