Erich Hartmann - several questions

[DiegoZampini]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Mars,
Yes, that was a "shameful" event if what happen to the refugees happen as described in the book.

Yes, if it happened, indeed is shamefull - teenagers and little girls raped and murdered by Soviet soldiers. BUT I WANT ALSO TO REMIND YOU, THAT ALSO ACCORDING TO HARTMANN HIMSELF, THOSE MONSTERS WERE IMMEDIATELY EXECUTED THE NEXT DAY, WHEN A RUSSIAN GENERAL ARRIVED TO THE AREA.
I INVESTIGATED THE MATTER, AND MY CONCLUSION IS THAT RAPING WAS NOT NEITHER TOLERATED NOR ENCOURAGED BY SOVIET COMMANDERS - WHEN DISCOVERED, THIS KIND OF CRIME WAS PUNISHED WITH FAST TRIALS AND IMMEDIATE EXECUTION.

Diego,
I have another source for the 20Aug43 incident with Hartmann being shot down from "Над Огненной Дугой" by Vitaliy Gorbach. Chapter 5.3 "On 20 August Erich Hartmann will be shot down by the fire of a Shturmovik from the composition of the 8 VA and only good luck will allow the future Luftwaffe star to avoid waiting to the end of the war in a prisoner of war camp". He doesn't say what regiment, pilot or gunner.

The work of Gorbach is interesting. Thanks for quoting it!! In any case, it did not discard that Leytenant Pavel Evdokimov had downed Hartamnn's using his Il-2 Shturmovik like a fighter that day.
BTW, Nokose: I read in several sources that Hartmann was shot down or had to belly land 14 times. But so far I could identify only 3 of them:
5.11.1942 - downed by Il-2 rear gunner of 7 GShAP.
25.05.1943 - was apparently shot down by a LaGG-3 in a "taran" while flying Bf.109G-4 W.Nr. 14997.
20.08.1943 - probably (I have no doubt) by Il-2 pilot Pavel Evdokimov.
Nokose: Did you (or anyone) know when ocurred the remaining 11 times that he crash-landed?
Kind regards to all
Diego

[VtwinVince]

Regarding the JG 27 incident, my uncle was 'Abschussoffizier' with JG 27 at the time, and I knew Stigler quite well. This story was not the most popular topic, and was not enthusiastically discussed. Didn't Sawallisch commit suicide over this?

[ruspren]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

Regarding the JG 27 incident, my uncle was 'Abschussoffizier' with JG 27 at the time, and I knew Stigler quite well. This story was not the most popular topic, and was not enthusiastically discussed. Didn't Sawallisch commit suicide over this?

I know he disapeared on a test flight shortly afterwards. I believe it was over the sea and his body washed up sometime later. I'm at work and can't check but I hadn't heard that this was a suicide. He was the highest claimer of the four.
Russ

[VtwinVince]

Russ, I can't remember where I read that this was a suicide. Certainly the whole episode demands more intense study IMO.

[Nokose]

On a previous thread Erwin Sawallisch's name was listed but his victories up through Russia were verified. I noticed that while he was serving there with Stab/JG77 (listed in JFV 6/II) he shot down a MiG-3 on the 15Jul41 for his 7th victory (no other information of time and location). He was the only one in the German units in the south claiming a MiG-3 that day. In Denes Bernad's book "From Barbarossa to Odessa Volume 1" it has St.Lt. Alexander Pokrishkin of the 55 IAP going down after a reconn. mission into the swamp 3km N. of Grozeshti. Wondered if this was possibly Sawallisch's MiG-3. Maybe Denes can give us his opinion since his research was in that area.

[Nikita Egorov]

Originally Posted by Nokose

On a previous thread Erwin Sawallisch's name was listed but his victories up through Russia were verified. I noticed that while he was serving there with Stab/JG77 (listed in JFV 6/II) he shot down a MiG-3 on the 15Jul41 for his 7th victory (no other information of time and location). He was the only one in the German units in the south claiming a MiG-3 that day. In Denes Bernad's book "From Barbarossa to Odessa Volume 1" it has St.Lt. Alexander Pokrishkin of the 55 IAP going down after a reconn. mission into the swamp 3km N. of Grozeshti. Wondered if this was possibly Sawallisch's MiG-3. Maybe Denes can give us his opinion since his research was in that area.

Michael,

According to documents of 20 SAD this was belly landing due to orientation lost and fuel shortage.

[Nikita Egorov]

Originally Posted by krichter33

I don't know what Hartmann's real character was like. Of course I'm sure it was much more complex than portrayed in "The Blond Knight of Germany." However his reputation has not been discredited by any hard facts; only rumors, speculation, suspicions, and faulty research (Khazanov). I, for one, welcome any new proven evidence, from a historical perspective, to better understand who these pilots were. Whomever the "true" Hartmann was, until speculations and rumors can be backed by actual facts, calling him, or any other historical figure, a fraudster or questioning his character is intellectually and morally dishonest.

Hartmann is a contradictory person. From one side it is evident that he overclaimed to a certain extent. The reason for that is unclear for the moment, was it personal ambitions or he simply did not care to observe the results of his attacks, due to speed disengagement. I saw some of the reports from our side of clashes with what was supposed to be Hartmann's Me-109. Everywhere reports say: immediate attack from above at high speed and immediate disengage without starting combat. This is a common tactics for almost all German aces and in this case real success is in marksmanship. Many of the attacked planes were not shot down but shot up, hit by one or several bullets without serious damage inflicted. Many were not hit at all. The majority of such claims were credited to Hartmann as confirmed, though the counterpart was not destoryed completely or in some cases not hit either. He prefered to attack only fighters, vulnerable to sudden interception, enjoying the superiority against ill-trained Soviet fighter pilots and inferior Soviet tactics. Thus, we have only 23 bombers and close-support planes on his account that is only 6,5 % of his score...
From another side his impeccable conduct in captivity. Many personalities were broken and somehow sided with Soviets. Hartmann never accepted any deals. I have not seen his POW dossier (It is closed for general access) but I spoke to the person, who works with POWs documents and he confirmed that almost all that written in "Blond Knight" regarding his experience in camps is more or less true, except strongly exaggerated images of the surrounding people.

[krichter33]

I don't know what Hartmann's real character was like. Of course I'm sure it was much more complex than portrayed in "The Blond Knight of Germany." However his reputation has not been discredited by any hard facts; only rumors, speculation, suspicions, and faulty research (Khazanov). I, for one, welcome any new proven evidence, from a historical perspective, to better understand who these pilots were. Whomever the "true" Hartmann was, until speculations and rumors can be backed by actual facts, calling him, or any other historical figure, a fraudster or questioning his character is intellectually and morally dishonest.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by krichter33

I don't know what Hartmann's real character was like. Of course I'm sure it was much more complex than portrayed in "The Blond Knight of Germany." However his reputation has not been discredited by any hard facts; only rumors, speculation, suspicions, and faulty research (Khazanov). I, for one, welcome any new proven evidence, from a historical perspective, to better understand who these pilots were. Whomever the "true" Hartmann was, until speculations and rumors can be backed by actual facts, calling him, or any other historical figure, a fraudster or questioning his character is intellectually and morally dishonest.

Amen! documented proof, proof, proof, ad infinitum!

[Nefiakoff]

I know he disapeared on a test flight shortly afterwards. I believe it was over the sea and his body washed up sometime later. I'm at work and can't check but I hadn't heard that this was a suicide. He was the highest claimer of the four.

So called "Experten-Schwarm" was active frauding quite short, 1-2 weeks of August 42 I suppose. Name of group's leader was Oblt. Vögl, he was staka 4./JG 27 and the only officer among them. However, Fiffi Stahlschmidt spotted 5 Bf 109s shooting into the sand, additional pilot was Uffz. Just (he became POW at end of that month).

I've met three opinions connected with death of Sawallisch - suicide, Bf 109 failure during check-out flight or even mechanics' revenge after wasting their work. His body was washed ashore next day.

Regards,
Nef