List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Yes, they were from a test

Interesting, and an early 109G test it would seem?
I trawled through the 605 loss data that I have but the closest to those engine numbers I have is one about two engines apart, which is close!
There is though 27428 listed as lost as late as 8 Feb '45 in a G-14, which quite a survivor, and would have been rebuilt as an 1800 horsepower AM by then.
Those 25xxx engines are possibly NiMo production, the 76/77xxx probably Genshagen. I know an early Genshagen 77xxx 605A that has a SKODA made crankcase (Kurbelgehause), complete with the SKODA cast-in badge.
There are many major parts from sub contractors. I have seen RENAULT made 605A cylinderblocks with the big Renault diamond shaped badge cast in.

Cheers

5port

[S Sheflin]

Thanks SM. These are two new ones for me.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by S Sheflin

Thanks SM. These are two new ones for me.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Thank you Steve. Sorry, I had to correct the coolant pump number, my bad!

SM

[Tomislav Haramincic]

Hi Chris,
You did an amazing effort cross-referencing all this engine production data and sharing the results with all us here. Really a great job!

I have a few more Genshagen produced AS engines with the assembly number sufix that might help you,

00705160/106 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163422
00704581/346 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163795
00708525/1206 ASM
0070952x/1548 AS-0
00709538/1572 installed on Bf109 G-14/AS WNr.780887
00709767/1720 AS-0

Looking at the first two engines I mentioned, the second engine has a lower engine number than the first one and a higher assembly number. This could indicate that the first AS engines were "returns" from various units or repair facilities which were then upgraded to AS standard. Later assembly number are in line with the engine numbers, so it's possible that the later AS engines were taken already at the production line and finished as AS engines. I have too little data to make this a solid claim, but I think it's worth taking this thought into account.

Regarding the Fiat production - I found another engine
48771/891 installed on Bf109 G-8 WNr.200435

cheers,

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by Tomislav Haramincic

Hi Chris,
You did an amazing effort cross-referencing all this engine production data and sharing the results with all us here. Really a great job!

I have a few more Genshagen produced AS engines with the assembly number sufix that might help you,

00705160/106 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163422
00704581/346 installed on Bf109 G-6/AS WNr.163795
00708525/1206 ASM
0070952x/1548 AS-0
00709538/1572 installed on Bf109 G-14/AS WNr.780887
00709767/1720 AS-0

Looking at the first two engines I mentioned, the second engine has a lower engine number than the first one and a higher assembly number. This could indicate that the first AS engines were "returns" from various units or repair facilities which were then upgraded to AS standard. Later assembly number are in line with the engine numbers, so it's possible that the later AS engines were taken already at the production line and finished as AS engines. I have too little data to make this a solid claim, but I think it's worth taking this thought into account.

Regarding the Fiat production - I found another engine
48771/891 installed on Bf109 G-8 WNr.200435

cheers,

Thank you Tomislav,

I had thought that I might not be able to make much of the 605AS production history but, it seems to be opening-up slowly!
Thank you so much for the latest details , I have very few details of AS production and only one engine with the extra production numbers after the 8-digit serial before your info. Strange how those production numbers are found. Now, my present theory is that these engines are all Genshagen new-build engines. The out-of numerical sequence of some engines with additional numbers is possibly due to an engine on production not reaching completion due to some shortcoming or problem such as damage (possibly from air-raids as well). The basic 8-digit 605 number would be generated right at the initial work on an engine but, I imagine the /???? AS production number was added as the basic 605A engine was completed as an AS. I can imagine the basic engines coming off the 605A line to have 605AS rear gearcase and the large supercharger fitted.
I don't see them building complete 605A engines and then modifying them to AS, nor do I imagine they built them on the same line with some of each. Also, I don't see them having a total 605AS build line. But I don't have confirmation, yet!
So, now that I have these extra numbers, I will build a chart of engines against production dates etc to see the patterns. There will be surprises but, it will be better than no idea, as we had before.
BTW, the BIOS production data that I have is only for "605" engines, no sub-variant id, no A/B/AS or D etc !. This makes it very difficult, but I hope to get better info in future!

Cheers

Chris

PS. I do realise that rebuilt engines would occur and that rebuild of 605A as 605AS would be possible. I just don't expect that would have happened as a plan until after summer '44. Again, maybe better info will come along!

[schwarze-man]

Hi everyone,

I have been able to study the relatively small number of DB 605AS engines with their engine serial numbers and the / assembly number ( /AS number) details highlighted by Tomislav. The basic background is that the first detailed flight test report of a Bf 109 G-AS that I have was on 22.12.43 with engine number 00702626. The engine serial corresponds to a build date of mid October '43 and the two month period before the flight test seems to probably represent the minimum that might be seen between engine build and flying at that time.
A point that can be seen on two of the engine data numbers is where the /AS number is out of sequence to the normal engine serial number. Here, I presume that the /AS number was allocated after construction of the complete AS engine. Because of this, it would happen that engines with delayed completion would be allocated a later /AS number than their serial number would suggest. So, an engine might have a later /AS number and where this appears out of sequence, it indicates that the engine was delayed before being completed as an AS and given a /AS number.
This does not really mean to apply to later possible "rebuilt" engines. That is a different question that I don't have info about, yet.
So, in particular, we see engine 00704581/346 which seems to be strange compared with 00705160/106, an engine number 579 later but with an /AS number 240 earlier. I think the situation here is that engine 04581 was delayed and it was completed as an AS engine about six weeks later.
Another possibility is errors in data. However, this does not seem to be a real issue and, the data is pretty solid for what I will propose.
So, my basic proposal is that the initial build of DB 605 AS-0 engines was a short run of 100 engines built in October '43. 00702626 would be an early engine in that block. The Flight test paper was compiled by Messerschmitt Augsberg on 22. 01. 44 and the positive performance improvement seems to have led to further engine/airframe production decisions.
The next batch of DB 605 AS-0 production started about end Feb '44, with engines at about 00705000. The first in the data is 00705160/106. Production at Genshagen was very high at this time, averaging about 900 DB 605 engines per month.
It is possible to calculate different average figures using different combinations of these statistics but, the average over the whole period from engine 00705160/106 to 00709767/1720 gives 4,607 DB605 engines produced, of which 1,614 were AS versions, which is 35% of production end Feb '44 till mid Aug '44.
The AS engine production continues after this point but, unfortunately I do not have the /AS numbers to help. However, I believe that this pretty much covers the very important stage of DB 605 AS engine production, up to late summer at Genshagen. DB 605 D versions were coming along at that stage.
Also, what happened with the later AS version production is another subject!
The data used is covered by the AS numbers given. There are later numbers up to 00711041, but without /AS number.
I hope this is useful to some!

Cheers

SM

[Matti Salonen]

My friend Pentti Manninen is still unable to log in to this site and has therefore asked me to forward the following:

"Regarding the DB 605 AS Baureiche 0 there is one interesting original documentation in the Finnish Air Force Museum archive collection.

With the FinnAF served two DB 605 AS engines WNr 007 0 7759 and the WNr 708251. The last mentioned was lost as German property and transferred to the Soviet Union, but WNr 007 0 7759 served FinnAF also post war time.

The WNr 007 0 7759 was assebled by Genshagen and installed into Bf 109 G-6AS WNr 163974 (FinnAF MT-463). This DB 605 AS was marked with overhaul time 100/2 on date 25.4.1944. The Lebenslaufakte WNr writings states also the following different styles: WNr 845 (00707759) and 00707759 (845), DB 605 AS Baureiche 0.

This DB 605 AS WNr 007 0 7759 Lebenslaufakte survives still with some dozens of plain DB 605 A-1 original documents. Some rarities are included as KWM 006 FIAT RA 1050 RC.58I Tifone:

540 48420
708 48588
874 48754
888 48768

and two more Tifone WNr of which WNr I do not have readily available.

Link to museum site and contact e-mails:

https://ilmavoimamuseo.fi/yhteystiedot/

Pentti Manninen"

Matti

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

My friend Pentti Manninen is still unable to log in to this site and has therefore asked me to forward the following:

"Regarding the DB 605 AS Baureiche 0 there is one interesting original documentation in the Finnish Air Force Museum archive collection.

With the FinnAF served two DB 605 AS engines WNr 007 0 7759 and the WNr 708251. The last mentioned was lost as German property and transferred to the Soviet Union, but WNr 007 0 7759 served FinnAF also post war time.

The WNr 007 0 7759 was assebled by Genshagen and installed into Bf 109 G-6AS WNr 163974 (FinnAF MT-463). This DB 605 AS was marked with overhaul time 100/2 on date 25.4.1944. The Lebenslaufakte WNr writings states also the following different styles: WNr 845 (00707759) and 00707759 (845), DB 605 AS Baureiche 0.

This DB 605 AS WNr 007 0 7759 Lebenslaufakte survives still with some dozens of plain DB 605 A-1 original documents. Some rarities are included as KWM 006 FIAT RA 1050 RC.58I Tifone:

540 48420
708 48588
874 48754
888 48768

and two more Tifone WNr of which WNr I do not have readily available.

Link to museum site and contact e-mails:

https://ilmavoimamuseo.fi/yhteystiedot/

Pentti Manninen"

Matti

Thank you very much Matti and also please thank Pentti!

The details of the AS engines are very good, and I thank you for the precise numbers. So, I think these two AS engines fit closely into the previous information. The first engine 00707759/845 fits both the production number sequence and the /AS number sequence. The other engine will undoubtedly have been 00708251 ( the /AS number would have been around 1050).
The date of 25.4.44 for the overhaul life recorded info seems slightly early on my engine build numbers (about a month) but, it depends when that was set down, I just don't know exactly how the administration of these details was done.
So, the overhaul life 100/2. The DB605A-0 (Zero series) had a similar life. This would mean "100 hours to major overhaul in two parts with part overhaul at 50 hours". This was an initial "life" for a zero series and would be further defined with experience.
So, good extra data to go with the previous AS info!

Now, the other Italian DB 605A data. Yes, very nice. It certainly looks like the Italian production is much greater than I have seen written before.

Many thanks!

Chris

[Matti Salonen]

The Finnish Air Force interpretation for the overhaul life 100/2 was different. According to them that meant "100 hours to major overhaul and only two cycles allowed (maximum 200 hours running time)". The engine 00707759 was in the aircraft 125h30' before removal. That was exactly 100 h plus 25 % extension due to good engine condition.

Matti

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen

The Finnish Air Force interpretation for the overhaul life 100/2 was different. According to them that meant "100 hours to major overhaul and only two cycles allowed (maximum 200 hours running time)". The engine 00707759 was in the aircraft 125h30' before removal. That was exactly 100 h plus 25 % extension due to good engine condition.

Matti

Hi Matti,

That is very interesting. I can understand if War emergencies caused engine overhaul delays, and different National operators could apply their own standards. However, I think that you wrote that the Genshagen production plant specified the "100/2" overhaul requirement?
The German data from Mercedes-Benz does not specify life-extensions, so that is a question? Beyond that, the Luftwaffe DB605A overhaul manual DLuftT. 3605A-B 0 und 1 is quite specific about the overhaul life and requirements of the DB 605 A, and the 0 (zero) series engines have a specific 100 hour Grunduberholung limit, with a Teiluberholung every 50 hours, and with no restriction on total number of rebuilds. So, I am interested if you have more data about this?

Cheers

SM