Aircraft shot down 28 May 1941

[Brian]

Hi guys,

Perusing Chris Goss' excellent Sea Eagles Volume One, I notice a loss reported on 28 May 1941, when an aircraft was shot down by RN warships escorting a convoy located north-west of the western coast of Eire.

A report from the CO of HMS Tartar confirms the 'unidentified' aircraft crashing into the sea, of seeing one wing amongst the wreckage and mentions a subsequent rescue operation.

Chris says there were no Luftwaffe losses. I have checked Foreman's FC losses and Ross' CC losses. Was there a BC loss? If not, what was the aircraft?

A mystery!

Cheers
Brian

[Amrit1]

According to http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr...bal-Tartar.htm

28th (may 1941) During return passage to Scapa Flow with HMS MASHONA came under heavy air attack 100 miles west of Ireland during which HMS MASHONA was hit and sustained major damage. After the stricken vessel capsized rescued 14 officers and 215 ratings and landed them at Greenock.

And the entry for the MASHONA

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr...al-Mashona.htm

Under sustained and heavy air attacks and hit on port side in Boiler Room. Damage control to reduce ingress of water failed and ship had to be abandoned.

Capsized and sunk in position west of Irish coast (52.58N 11.3W). 46 of ship’s company lost their lives.

184 survivors rescued by HMS TARTAR and Canadian destroyer HMS ST CLARE.

and

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/4431.html

While in company with HMS Tartar on 27 May 1941, German aircraft commenced bombing attacks on the two ships. One bomb found its mark and struck Mashona's port side, abreast of the forefunnel. It penetrated No.1 Boiler Room and exploded there, blowing a huge hole in the side of the ship. The air attack continued. As Mashona continued listing to port, her guns were hand trained to starboard. At least the crew would be able to fire at any target that passed overhead. To lighten the Tribal, all unnecessary gear was thrown overboard for a 45 minute interval but it was to no avail. Mashona was listing farther and farther with each roll. Orders were given to abandon ship. For an hour, there was a lull in the bombing. This gave Tartar an opportunity to pick up the survivors. Forty-six men had been lost in the action. The Tribal was now on her side and refusing to sink. Tartar fired a torpedo and missed. By this time, HMS Sherwood and HMCS St. Clair had arrived and they were ordered to fire at the hull. The shells hit, the trapped air rushed out and Mashona (Cdr. William Halford Selby, RN) slipped into the sea about 65 nautical miles east of the Aran Islands, Ireland in position 52º58'N, 11º36'W. Mashona's battle ensign was saved and now resides in the Cathedral of Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia.

It all seems to point to a German attack.

A

[Brian Bines]

The KG54 book says on May 28th 63 bombers took part in a search for the Home Fleet to the west coast of Ireland with 11 of these aircraft from II/KG54. The loss of B3+DC crew of Oblt. Erich Heinrichs is recorded as falling to Beaufighters while on ''Schiffziele bei Irland''.

Regards

Brian Bines

[Brian]

Many thanks Amrit and Brian

It would therefore seem to have been the victim of Beaufighters and not ships' AA fire.

Cheers
Brian

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

Hold your horses for a minute. The date quoted by Amrit from his internet sites are both the 27th and the 28th which indicates the naval action possibly took place during the night 27/28th of May.

Radtke lists the loss of II./KG 54 Ju 88A-5 on the 28th and to a fighter at Ireland (in the appendix), but looking inside the book on page 66 it looks like Heinrich was NOT on the major raid against shipping earlier in the day but on a second raid during the evening and in fact lost over England.

Foreman lists the same action on the night between 28/29th of May. On top he claims it was shot down by AA in the Thames Estuary which to my mind is quite a distance from "100-miles-west-of-Ireland".

In RAF Fighter Command only one Beaufighter scored at an unknown time during the night of May 28/29th and that was W/C Appleton of 604Sq who claimed a Heinkel 111 at Buckley

I know that Coastal Command operated Beaufighters as well at least in the beginning of 1942. Could they have operated Beaufighters as early as May 1941 and recorded any victory? And did really RAF fighters operate as far out as west of Ireland at this rather early stage of the war?

The general problem is the complete lack of times listed in all my second hand sources and in many cases not stating if it was day or night when an action took place.

I must confess I am just as puzzled as Brian is in his first e-mail...

Cheers
Stig

[Chris Goss]

OK gentlemen. The attack was daylight 28 May 41 consisting 63 ac:

14 from KGr 100 attacking 0825-1040 hrs
13 from I/KG 28 attacking 0910-1025 hrs and claiming the Mashona
1 from KGr 606 (nothing reported)
5 from KGr 606 attacking 1605 hrs
5 from KG1 attacking 1600-1710 hrs
10 from KG 77 attacking 1355-1455 hrs
3 from KuFlGr 406 nothing reported
8 from KG 54 nothing reported
4 from KuFlGr 406 nothing reported.

I/KG 28 and KGr 100 each lost a He 111 on take off; nothing was lost over the fleet.
The Germans reported intercepts by Hurricanes & Blenheims. CC reported meeting He 111 at 0950 hrs (254 Sqn); 0800 & 1025 hrs (502 Sqn); 1612 hrs (damaged by Slyne Head by 233 Sqn) 1624 hrs (Slyne Head, 233 Sqn destroyed); 2235 hrs (dam by 224 Sqn); 2315 hrs (dam by 224 Sqn)

[Brian Bines]

Stig,

My German is not so good but from page 66 ''Im Versammlungsraum in ca. 3800m hohe, in Sicht eines nach Norden ablaufenden Kreuzers wird er durch eine beaufighter abgeschossen''.
I thought this translates as- in the assembly areas at a height of 3800m in sight of a Cruiser heading northwards was he through a Beaufighter shot down ( any correction appreciated).
The Q.M's list show the cause and the place of loss of this Ju88 as unknown, three crew are shown as missing but it looks like the body of the Bs was recovered.
Would Radtke have access to diaries/NVM etc which might have more information about the loss of Heinrich's aircraft.
Just to add to the problem I believe W/C Gleed and F/O Watson in Hurricanes of 87 Sqd ( up from St.Marys Bay Scilly Islands ) claimed a Ju88 at low level as a probable, 60 miles south of the Scillies this day,

Regards

Brian Bines

[Chris Goss]

Gleed claimed a Ju 88 probable west of the Scillies; this matches with a Ju 88 of KGr 606 being intercepted by 2 x Hurricanes west of the Scillies (and not probably destroyed!)

[Stig Jarlevik]

Indeed Brian (B)

My German is probably worse than yours, but since Radtke mentions assembly area, I cannot believe this area to be 100 kms west of Ireland and the place given by Foreman, that is the Thames Estuary, feels better. If the loss really was to a Beau or AA-fire, well beats me, but the main point as I see it, is that Heinrich did not belong to the KG 54 raid west of Ireland. He is on a second raid later in the day. How late is not stated by Radtke. If it is late enough to possibly co-incide with W/C Appleton's claim listed 28/29.5, I cannot say either, since no time is listed for basically anything in my sources.
To me it seems however like Radtke compromise himself inside the book vs his appendix where he states Heinrich's loss to be Ireland while this is not so in the main text of the book, unless of course there was a second raid west of Ireland again. From Chris answer this seems not to have been the case. ALso we know that the main raid was during daylight (thanks Chris). Other discrepancies are that Chris states KG 54 sent 8 aircraft while Radtke lists 11. Is Radtke possibly combining two raids (sorties) that day into one?
From where has Foreman received HIS details, which is totally different from Radtke or anyone else? At least Chris and Foreman agree that there was no losses during the attack west of Ireland....

Cheers
Stig

[Brian Bines]

Hi Stig,

Hopefully someone with a fuller understanding of German might be able to give a better translation of the rest of the paragraph. I thought the assembly area referred to was that of the Home Fleet rather than the German aircraft. I also thought that the spirit of the rest of the paragraph was to the effect that the loss of Heinrich was a black omen ahead of the planned night attack rather than saying Heinrich was on the attack of 28/29th. The report of lost to Beaufighters perhaps should have been lost to Blenheims if the day loss is correct.
On the other hand as you say perhaps Radtke made a mistake in writing that Heinrich was lost on a Schiffsziele bei Irland. In both the book and the QM's list the Bs Uffz Herbert Mandl is shown as gefallen might where he is buried indicate the likely loss area of B3+DC ?

All the best

Brian Bines