Kurt Müller/Müller's of I./ZG 2

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I have two Kurt Müller's of I./ZG 2 that could possibly be just one guy. The first I have flying for 3./ZG 2 an Oberfeldwebel killed ? 7th April 1940, made a claim on 15th September 1939, aaleged to have made five claims in all.

Seceond an Oberleutnant flying for 2./ZG 2 taken prisoner on 3rd September 1940 , alleged 7 claims(by his rudder), but no dates known.

If the death of the Oberfeldwebel wasn't so these could be the same guy.

Grateful for any information regarding these/this Guys/Guy

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Matti Salonen]

Not the same guy. Different DOB and EKM. Also 7 April 40 definitely killed.

Matti

[John Manrho]

Matti, maybe you can list the EKM numbers and the DoB for these two individuals? There was another Oblt. Kurt Müller in 3./ZG 2 and I would like to know for certain which claims belongs to who.....

John

[Matti Salonen]

1940-04-07, 2./ZG 2 (GQM gives I./ZG 2, but EKMs of the crew were assigned by 2./ZG 2):
Fw Kurt Müller, * 17 Oct 1915, EKM 55565/7
1940-09-03, Aircraft from 3./ZG 2, but the crew from 2./ZG 2:
Oblt Kurt Müller, * 27 Oct 1919, EKM 55565/31

There was also in 3./ZG 2:
Oblt Kurt Müller, * 11 Jul 1912, EKM 55566/2

Matti

[Johannes]

Hi Matti

Many thanks for that.

So both from 2./ZG 2, which leads me to believe the claim could be for either pilot! Both reportedly aces......which I suspect again is some kind of confusion!!!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Evgeny Velichko]

Moreover- both flew in SCW and both had claims, some of them verified!

Rank, Name # Date Type Republic losses German+Italian+Frankists claims Result of claim analisys

Oblt. Müller 1 13.06.1938 Curtiss Could not be confirmed (overclaim)
Oblt. Müller 2 15.07.1938 Curtiss 1 7 Could be confirmed as shared
Oblt. Müller 3 23.08.1938 Rata 3 3+8 italian claims Could be confirmed as shared

Ofw. Müller 1 17.01.1939 Rata Could not be confirmed (overclaim)
Ofw. Müller 2 21.01.1939 Curtiss Could not be verificated

[Stig Jarlevik]

Johannes

According to the book Luftwaffe crash Archive Vol 3, Obltn Müller was not flying his regular aircraft on Sep 3rd, 1940 so it is unlikely the seven stripes on the rudder belonged to him. It seems he also told his interrogator he had made two claims against the British.

Since Matti introduced a third (!!) Kurt Müller in that same unit, I wonder if actually the person born in 1912 was the one who made three claims in Spain? Our POW on Sep 3rd, born in 1919 seems a bit too young making claims in 1938. Can this be verified?

There is however a problem with rank, since Matti states that the individual born in 1915 'only' was a Fw and we clearly have an Ofw in Spain. Johannes also believe the pilot lost on 15.9.39 was an Ofw and not a Fw so he could after all fit in with the Müller claiming two victories in Spain 1939.

Anyone who can clarify the situation better than me?

Cheers
Stig

[Larry deZeng]

Speaking of 3 Müllers in the same unit, how about 4 of them aboard the same aircraft:

09.04.41 He 111 H-5 markings 1G+FK (Wk.Nr. 4018) belonging to 2./KG 27 shot down by a Hurricane in the early morning hours near Wellesborne/Warwickshire with
FF Ofw. Heinz Müller
BO Oblt. Hans Müller
BF Fw. Georg Schäfer
BM Fw. Helmut Müller
Sdfhr. (Z) Wulf-Dieter Müller

L.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Looks like Müller was as common back then as it is now.

I guess it is here that Nick comes running advising how many Müllers there are per square feet in Germany... (Sorry Nick...

Cheers
Stig

[John Manrho]

I believe the 3 claims in 1938 in Spain belong to:

Oblt. Kurt Müller, born 05.06.1917 Hamburg and killed on 19.12.1942 with 10.(Jabo)/JG 26. According to Priller he had 5 victories....

John