Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich

[focusfocus]

Hi guys

14/05/44
A Caproni Ca 313 Swedich (S-16A,3335 F11-14) was shot down 15 km from Libau by Obfd.Gerhard Schroder (NAGr-5),claimed as DB-3.

1)I would like to know wether the claim was credited to him?
no mention in the list of Tony Wood.

15/05/44
Caproni Ca 313 (S-16B,3304/F11-8):disappeared mysteriously!

23/05/44
Caproni Ca 313 (S-16A,3319/F11-61):disappeared 11 km of Danisch port of Anholt.

07/06/44
Caproni Ca 313 (S-16A,3345/F11-34):disappeared mysteriously

Many disappearances in such a short time:strange!

2) Have been shot down by Luftwaffe? and the incidents supressed for diplomatic reasons?

Thank's in advance

Michel

[Stig Jarlevik]

Michel

First of all the SwAF never used a hyphen in its designation. The Ca 313 was known as the B 16A, S 16A/B, T 16A and Tp 16A depending on its role. In this case S 16A is correct.

In all four S 16A are recorded during this time frame to have been lost, three known to German interference, and the other one most probably not.

S 16A Fv no 3335 F11-14 disappeared 14 May 1944 shot down by Bf 109G-8 over the Baltic, probably by Obfw Gerhard Frenzel aus Plauen who claimed a DB-3, one killed and three rescued.
S 16A Fv no 3304 F11-8 disappeared 15 May 1944 during search for Fv no 3334, probably shot down by Fw Paul Schalk 6./JG 5, four killed
S 16A Fv no 3319 F11-61 disappeared 23 May 1944 11km west of Anholt, probably shot down by Uffz Mittelstadt 10./JG 1 who claimed a Douglas, four killed
S 16A Fv no 3345 F11-34 disappeared 7 June 1944 over the Baltic, probable cause mist mistaken for low clouds and flight into the water/loss of control with the same result, four killed.

I don't believe the incidents were supressed at the time. The Swedish long range reconnaissance units were snoping around in the Baltic to have first hand data of what the German (and Soviets) were doing in the area, and it feels reasonable to believe that all personal knew about the risks and even if probably no one liked said risks, I doubt anyone backed out.

So far my Swedish sources. Most correspond to your details, except who shot down Fv no 3335. I have no unit for Frenzel aus Plauen but he could well be from NAGr 8. Did that unit claim two aircraft?

Cheers
Stig

[Brian]

Great information, Stig

Do you have details of the identities of those lost?

Cheers
Brian

[Stig Jarlevik]

Yes Sir!

I have lists of all Swedish crews killed in aircraft crashes.
Also details of all pilots/crews known to have survived parachute jumps/ejections.

Cheers
Stig

[focusfocus]

Very interesting Stig!

According to my source (Rolf Jonsson) Frenzel and Schroder were well members of NAGr-5....error of Jonsson? or NAGr-8?

A very personal remark:
If they have not been deliberately shot down,difficult to understand these "errors" of identification(enormous Swedish markings).

Michel

[Peter]

A link to an interesting discussion on the two first losses of Capronis, unfortunately in swedish.

http://forum.flyghistoria.org/viewto...b511237dec9210


Conclusion, Fw Paul Schalk 6./JG 5 shot down both Capronis

[Stig Jarlevik]

Michel

First an apology. Don't know why I wrote NAGr 8. Was supposed to be NAGr 5 all the time. The reason Gerhard Frenzel is quoted in my book was that he fled to Sweden at the end of the war and told his interrogators he was the one.

All shoot downs are intentional in war. The knowledge however what you are shooting at may not however always live up to our expectations. Aircraft recognition was generally of a rather low quality, on all sides. You basically saw what you expected/wished to see. Also remember the old saying, the one who shoots first usually live to see another day.

Don't forget the number of blue-on-blue incidents during WW 2 was rather staggering as well, which says a lot why so many individuals completely failed to see any national markings (and, added to that failed with their aircraft identification).

Peter

It seems new information/research has produced a different result regarding the shoot down on 14 May 1944. Will read it through. Thanks for pointing it out!

Cheers
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

All

From the forum I notice there is a Swedish speaking Swiss Gentlemen who has done research down in Freiburg. Among documents relating to Naval stuff he has located some papers which more or less conclusively clinch Fw Paul Schalk to the two shoot downs of S 16A 3335 and 3304.

He has a theory regarding why Gerhard Frenzel, when interrogated in 1945, stated he shot down one of them. I have asked him to clarify a couple of points before I state that theory.

Again a very interesting discussion. Thanks Michel for bringing it up

Cheers
Stig

[sveahk]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

All

From the forum I notice there is a Swedish speaking Swiss Gentlemen who has done research down in Freiburg. Among documents relating to Naval stuff he has located some papers which more or less conclusively clinch Fw Paul Schalk to the two shoot downs of S 16A 3335 and 3304.

Cheers
Stig

Being the "Gentleman"in question, I'd like to give some more information regarding this incident over the Baltic sea.

Since april 1944 the "Seekommandant Libau" registered with some irritation regularly performed enemy flights outside the Libau coast - each day the same hours and more or less the same route. They asked for help and got it from Luftflottenkommando 1 which sent a "Tag-Jagdschwarm" II./JG 5 to Libau-Grobin, airfields in Latvia. Possibly only three pilots were sent - Oblt. Theo Weissenberger, Fw Paul Schalk and Uffz Zacharias.(App 1)

Then, as we've seen, on the 14 and 15 of May the two swedish Capronis were shot down by Paul Schalk - clearly shown in the naval documents I found in Freiburg/Brsg.

Then we have this national markings thing. Paul Schalk wrote in his first report and later by the hearing, that he attacked from behind and underneath, but mentioned only the markings on the body of the Caproni: Three yellow crowns on blue and a big white 14 on the tail fin. Nothing about wing markings.

In the belief that this must be a russian aircraft with false national markings, he didn't hesitate to shoot it down...and with the same belief he also took down the Caproni the following day - all the more as the "enemy" planes moved as if they were trying to escape...! By the hearing a couple of days later - at a time when they all knew those were swedish planes - Schalk came up with some other excuses, a.o. he himself knew the swedish markings should have been three blue crowns on white ground...!

Anyway he got away with it in the end, no problems...

Btw, the german Luftwaffenkommando tried to block the news of the second Caproni shooting. It was to be seen as a spy thing. "Don't tell the Swedes anything about (our involvement)"!!(App 2)

Hans K

[Juha]

Very interesting
especially thanks to Peter for the link to the Flyghistoria pages!

Saw once a part of a Swedish film on the Swedish Caproni C 313 crews showing the recon flights over the Baltic. And saw the the replica used in the film in the Swedish AF Museum.

Juha