Hans Hahn

[Nokose]

I was wondering about the verified victories of Hans Hahn with JG2. Has anyone checked any against the actual allied losses? I don't have Jerry Crandall's book on Hahn but did he say post war that he actually shot down the "LaGG-5" since he was a POW and couldn't file for it. Evgeny Velichko (on 27Aug2009) stated in his thread for the late Soviet ace Alexander Mikhailovich Chislov that Hahn only damaged his La-5 in that dogfight on 21Feb43. There were four claims and two losses and I don't know how many more damaged on the Soviet side.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Mike - ask Nikita Egorov, he has full info on last aircombat of Hahn.

[Nokose]

Decided to "re-use" this thread on Hahn. Looking at his western victories.
14 May 40 09:55 Hurricane (1) Gembloux (Found Hurricane I P2621 607 Sqn Fl. Lt. JL Sullivan [KIA] La Carrierre, Perwez, N of Namur).

19 May 40 12:18 Hurricane (2) Tournai (Found Hurricane I L1674 253 Sqn Lt. H.T.J. Anderson [KIA] SE of Lille).

19 May 40 ? Morane 406 (3) Tournai (No matching loss)

03 Jun 40 14:50 Hawk 75 (4) ENE of Paris (Possibly Curtiss H-75 (#45) GC-I/5 S/Lt. P. Scotte [KIA] near Dormans).

06 Jun 40 20:35 Hawk 75 (5) Roye (No matching loss)

11 Aug 40 11:45 Spitfire (6) Portland (Numerous RAF fighters in the Portland area at that time, two Hurricane Is of the 87 Sqn RAF over Portland Bill, Spitfire I (R6614) 152 Sqn P/O JSB Jones [KIA] over Portland 11:00 (local) and four Hurricane Is of the 601 Sqn at this time)

25 Aug 40 18:30 Spitfire (7) Dorchester (Found possible Spitfire I R6986 609 Sqn P/O P. Ostaszewski-Ostoja [WIA] over Swanage).

31 Aug 40 09:00 Spitfire (8) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 09:05 Spitfire (9) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 17:05 Spitfire (10) Dover (No matching to this time)

I used two sources for this information "The Battle of France Then and Now" and "Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the second world war Vol. 1". So can anyone comment on any additional information about these claims before I move to the next ones in the west.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

If JG 5 was the worst over-claiming unit in the east, then JG 2 was the worst in the west. Some of it's pilots were honest Meimberg and Seeger by memory, but Hahn was certainly not one of these. Took his habits to the east, I believe that Maximilian Stotz was honest until Hahn became his C.O, then huge over-claiming until Hahn's capture, then returns to honesty.

Regards

Johannes

[Nokose]

Thanks Johannes. On the 31 Aug 1940 there were RAF losses within the hours in the morning when Hahn claimed but not at the time of his claims according to Franks book. Also I haven't yet checked all of the claims made by other pilots in that area and time. I'll check Tony Woods a little later but sometimes Prien's JFV has a few more then Tony's.

[Chris Goss]

I would urge caution just using Fighter Command Losses for times-best bet would be to use the F540s of the Sqns involved. Trouble is 31 Aug-end of Sept 40 is a busy time and some units records were understandably inaccurate

[Nokose]

Thanks Chris for the information but limited resources prevents me from going much further. I'm trying to get a better "picture" of his actual score before going to Russia in the west. I looked at Tony's list and actually found a possible for Erich Rudorffer on the 31 Aug 1940 (which I wasn't looking for at this stage). It appears from all the German pilots claims there were more then a few "extra" claims made during the day on the 31 Aug 1940. So it looks like Hahn's claims might not have been shot down for that day. Hahn was a fighter who jumped into odds that some people would have second thoughts about but his claims at least so far in Russia have not been that reliable in the real world. So I would like to get a feel of how he was before going there.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Guys

If JG 5 was the worst over-claiming unit in the east, then JG 2 was the worst in the west. Some of it's pilots were honest Meimberg and Seeger by memory, but Hahn was certainly not one of these. Took his habits to the east, I believe that Maximilian Stotz was honest until Hahn became his C.O, then huge over-claiming until Hahn's capture, then returns to honesty.

Regards

Johannes

Johannes, try a crazy new idea.

In the light of recent threads and posts where forum members and even a forum moderator were accused of discrediting some of the world's most "brilliant" authors (who, incidentally, were never named... LOL)
Back up what you're saying, because your post represents discrediting a guy who was actually there. You do it like this (and Nokose, I hope this gives you more of a real answer) :

14 May 40 09:55 Hurricane (1) Gembloux (Found Hurricane I P2621 607 Sqn Fl. Lt. JL Sullivan [KIA] La Carrierre, Perwez, N of Namur). Unconfirmed victory 5 minutes later, all 3 of 607's losses accounted for by claims from Schnell (MB152) and Harbauer

19 May 40 12:18 Hurricane (2) Tournai (L1674 of B Flight, 253 sqn. F/L Harry John Thomas Anderson KIA). Unconfirmed MS406 on the same date.

03 Jun 40 14:50 Hawk 75 (4) ENE of Paris (Possibly Curtiss H-75 (#45) GC-I/5 S/Lt. P. Scotte [KIA] near Dormans). Just as likely claimed by Meimberg.

06 Jun 40 20:35 Hawk 75 (5) Roye (No matching loss) One source says a Curtiss Hawk. Private victory board says Spit over Portland (maybe a confused reference to his next victory claim)

11 Aug 40 11:45 Spitfire (6) Portland (Numerous RAF fighters in the Portland area at that time, two Hurricane Is of the 87 Sqn RAF over Portland Bill, Spitfire I (R6614) 152 Sqn P/O JSB Jones [KIA] over Portland 11:00 (local) and four Hurricane Is of the 601 Sqn at this time) Or possibly 64 sqn: P9450 of Sgt. J Whelan damaged, unable to lower undercarriage on return to base (pilot unhurt) and N3293 (R6991?) of P/O C J D Andreae damaged as well, pilot also unhurt

25 Aug 40 18:30 Spitfire (7) Dorchester (Found possible Spitfire I R6986 609 Sqn P/O P. Ostaszewski-Ostoja [WIA] over Swanage). Possibly N3226 of 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn. Sgt. M H Sprague baled out safely with P9381 of 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn. F/O W H Coverley baled out safely claimed by Bolz

31 Aug 40 09:00 Spitfire (8) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 09:05 Spitfire (9) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 17:05 Spitfire (10) Dover (No matching to this time)
4 Sep 40 10:15 Spitfire, Ashford. Likely 111 sqn. They lost R4172 of F/L David Campbell Bruce and Z2309 of P/O J Macinski baled out but both KIA off Folkestone 0915 BT plus Z2308 damaged in the same engagement, F/O B H Bowring unhurt but slight possibility that it was P9316 of 66 sqn. P/O A N R L Appleford baled out WIA over the Estuary at 0950 British Time

4 Sep 40 14:25 Spitfire, Margate. Most likely 66 sqn. Was this X4052 of F/L G P Christie WIA? Forcelanded outside Canterbury around this time or (less likely) R6689 of P/O C A Cooke baled out WIA over Ashford at 1340 British Time

6 Sep 40 10:00 and 10:05, 2 Spitfires, Ashford and Gillingham. Likely 601 sqn (they shot down Himmelheber around this time) 4 losses: F/L William Henry "Willy" Rhodes-Moorehouse, KIA in P8818. F/O Carl Raymond Davis (American) in P3363/W KIA. P/O H T Gilbert baled out WIA from V6647 as did F/O Juliusz Topolnicki from P3382

7 Sep 40 18:25 Spitfire, Gillingham. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

8 Sep 40 Hurricane, untimed, London. Either L2061 of 605 "West Riding" sqn NZ pilot Jack Fleming WIA over Tunbridge Wells at 1230 BT (joined Guinea Pig Club) or 46 sqn, 3 losses: Sub Lt. John C "Jack" Carpenter, baled out from P3201 but KIA, F/O N W Burnett, forcelanded WIA in V6631 and P3053 of P/O P R McGregor crashlanded safely
11 Sep40 16:15 Hurricane, Tablehurst. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

15 Sep40 15:35 Spitfire, Thorney Island. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

20Sep40 12:15 Spitfire, London/Home Counties. Either N3203 of 'B' flight, 222 "Natal" sqn . P/O Herbert Laurence Whitbread, KIA (attributed to several other pilots, in particular Adolf Galland) or Hurricane V6722 of 605 sqn. P/O W J Glowacki, damaged but returned unhurt. Judging by time, possibly K9993 of William Assheton, also of 222 sqn (whom some also attribute to Galland)

23Sep40 10:30 Spitfire, Rochester/London. 92 sqn. Overclaiming, only one loss: P9371 of P/O A J S Pattinson WIA attempting to crashland (additional claims by Sprick and Hornatschek of III/JG 26)

15Oct40 13:35 Spitfire, Isle of Wight. 609 sqn. Either P9503 of F/O John C Dundas damaged, unhurt or X4539 of P/O Noel Le Chevalier Agazarian. Both damaged over Southampton, pilots unhurt. 3, possibly 4 other claims for these 2 losses.

6.11.40 15:55 Hurricane, E of Southampton. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

24.6.41 21:00 Spitfire V, Calais (or Gravelines-Ramsgate?). 603 "City of Edinburgh" or 611 sqn. 603 lost W3121 of F/O Kenneth John McKelvie KIA and W3364 of Sgt. Lamb WIA. 611 lost R7349 of F/L F A Buys KIA. 74 sqn also had one Spit Cat.2 (Massive overclaiming, 13 claims between JG 2 and JG 26).

25.6.41 16:31 Spitfire, into sea, NE of Boulogne or Marquise. 303, 616 or 610 sqn. 616 lost P8272 of Sgt John Alfred Hatton Jenks and P7327 of Sgt. Ronald Leslie Brewer (NZ) both KIA plus one other damaged; 303 lost P8672 of P/O S Paderewski WIA and 610 lost P8399/DW-O of P/O J R Scott POW. (Again, fairly hefty overclaiming: 11 claims in total for these losses)

26.6.41 11:55 Spitfire V, Dunkirk. 92, 145 and 603 "City of Edinburgh" sqns. 92 lost P8532 of Sgt. G W Aston POW, 145 sqn lost P8314 of P/O A McBeth POW, 603 sqn lost R272 of P/O C A Newman KIA. 6 claims for these losses...

2.7.41 Spitfire, Hazebrouck. Another claim for Hurricane II Z3094 of 71 sqn? P/O W I Hall WIA-POW (generally credit to Rolf Pingel. He is mentioned in Paul Brickhill's "Reach for the Sky" biography of Douglas Bader)

7.7.41 15:36 Hurricane, 7km W of Le Touquet @ 3000m. Misidentification? Afternoon's losses include X4667 of 145 sqn, Sgt G F Silvester WIA and Sgt. W G Lockhart of 74 sqn, evaded capture. 616 sqn lost one Spitfire in circumstances I haven't looked into yet....

8.7.41 15:52 Spitfire, Calais-Marck. I have yet to fully determine the circumstances of the day's British losses, but I know as much as this: they include R7218 of 145 sqn. F/O Jiri J Machacek KIA same unit lost R7263 of Sgt. P R Pine RCAF (American) POW whilst 611 sqn lost R7277 of Sgt. B W Feely KIA. Shortly after Hahn's claim, Schnell and Brunkhorst most likely claimed against 303 "Kosciuszko" sqn. 3 losses near Dunkirk in the afternoon: P8502/C of S/L T A Arentowicz KIA, P8669/M F/O Wiktor Strembosz KIA and P8247 of Sgt Giermer WIA. Possibly also P7845 of 308 sqn, Sgt. J Biel POW. Earlier in the day Schnell had claimed against either W3239/PR-N of 609 sqn, Sgt J A Hughes-Rees ditched near Goodwin sands after combat with Bf109 at 0630, or P8470/OU- of 485 sqn, Sgt. W N Hendry KIA off Gravelines 0535-0720 British Time.

10.7.41 2 Spitfires at 12:08 and 12:12, St. Omer. 72, 92, 610 and 611 sqns. 72 sqn lost P8600 "Lady Linlithgow" of Sgt. Allan James Casey, W3411 of F/O J M Godlewski and P8604 "Jamshedpur Golmari II" of Sgt. Charles Leslie Harrison all KIA and one other cat.2 damaged. 92 sqn lost W3403 "the dog's fighter" of Sgt G C Waldern RCAF rescued safely by ASR, 611 sqn lost P8539 of F/S L Hemingway KIA plus three others cat.2 damaged. 610 sqn lost P8523/DW-R "Bansi" of P/O P Ward-Smith POW, P8374/DW-K of Sgt. H C D Blackman KIA and P8520/DW-Q "the Mendip Spitfire" of Sgt. H C D Blackman POW. Versus 12 JG 2 and JG 26 claims. 1.Erg/JG 2 seems to have claimed against 234 sqn Spitfires P8137 "Sarum and South Wilts Spitfire" of Sgt. I E Pearce KIA, P8659 of Sgt. H A Newman WIA and P8015 W/C M V Blake DFC ditched and rescued after 5 hours

21.7.41 08:50 Spitfire over Gravelines. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

21.7.41 20:45 Spitfire over Watten. 19 sqn. Three losses: P7547 of F/O Harold Oxlin (down near Montreuil), P7890 of P/O Michael Duncan Tucker (down near St. Omer) (both KIA) and P8579 of Sgt. Brooker WIA. At least one other claim, by Guenther Seeger.

22.7.41 13:45 and 13:53. 2 Spitfires over Calais. These opponents may as well count as untraced. Day's only other known attributable loss was R7303 of 54 sqn, P/O L J D Jones KIA. W3369 of 603 "City of Edinburgh" sqn, P/O P J Delorme also lost (believed oxygen failure). Priller claimed against 308 "Torun" sqn. 2 losses: P8313 of F/O W Bozek and P8590 of P/O M M Orzechowski. Both pilots KIA

23.7.41 20:20 and 20:23, 2 Spitfires over Marzingarbe or W of Hesdin. 72, 603, 610 and 611 sqns. Sorry, but I have yet to document the full extent of the losses into my own database....

5.8.41 18:44, Spitfire St. Omer - Calais. Possibly overclaiming, haven't yet found a matching loss

7.8.41 18:17, Spitfire Calais. Losses to JG 2 very likely include W3635 of F/L Gilbert G F Draper of 41 sqn, baled out POW to unknown causes; R7161 of 92 sqn, Sgt. G P Hickman WIA in crashlanding at Deal plus 308 sqn's P8573 of P/O L Stampel KIA and P8094 of Sgt. S Bruzda KIA also. The day's claims are very confusing and hard to sort out....

12.8.41 12:45 and 12:50 2 Spitfires Gravelines and Ramsgate/Cap-Gris-Nez. Were these the losses suffered by 602 sqn around midday? AB844 of Sgt. H J Bell-Walker POW plus one other cat.2 damaged

12.8.41 18:51 Spitfire Cap-Gris-Nez/Gravelines. Clear overclaiming - only 6 Spitfires lost

20.9.41 16:30, 16:42 and 16:43 3 x Spitfires. 10km E of the Somme Estuary @ 6000m/Channel Front. The losses most attributable to JG 2 were: 602 sqn lost W3622 of Sgt. C J Squibb KIA and P8787 of Sgt. W L Brown KIA; W3816 (plus one other damaged?) of 611 sqn; W3179 of 92 sqn. 14 claims for these losses. I believe Rudorffer and Wehrhagen claimed against AB841 of 452 sqn RAAF. Sgt Ian A L Milne (from Laura South Australia, he was my district's "local" Spitfire pilot) shot down into sea, rescued and made POW (was part of Circus 100B). JG 26's victims are said to include 111 sqn's AB962 of F/L L S Pilkington DFM KIA and W3773 "Leyland UDC" of Sgt D G Harwood POW and 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn's W3622 of Sgt C J Squibb KIA near Abbeville

27.9.41 15:35 Spitfire. A definite JG 2 victory was W3655 "Silver Grey" of 616 "South Yorkshire" sqn. Sgt J G West DFM RNZAF damaged by Fw190 and baled out near Bexhill. JG 26 claimed against 129 sqn lost W3829/"Holt II" of Sgt. Ian Allister Spence-Ross POW; 616 sqn lost P/O R G Sutherland RCAF KIA; 308 sqn lost W3940 of Sgt. E Watolski POW; 402 sqn; 603 sqn lost W3233 of Sgt. J W Archibald KIA and R7221 of F/S W J Allard POW; 611 sqn lost W3442 of F/S G T Evans POW; 403 sqn lost AB963/KH-E of Sgt. H D MacDonald WIA and KH-C of S/L R A Lee-Knight DFC KIA; 72 sqn lost P8560 of Sgt. John Graham Merrett RAAF and AB843 of Sgt. A F Binns both KIA; 609 sqn lost W3625 of P/O Victor M M Ortmans rescued safely; 411 sqn suffered one aircraft cat.3 written off, pilot safe

2.10.41 15:05 Spitfire over the Pas de Calais. 92 sqn. Includes W3459 of F/L J W Lund, W3137 of Sgt N H Edge and W3762 of Sgt K G Port all KIA, P/O D A Bruce injured in W3657 (crashlanded near Ashford). 5 other JG 2 claims that might pertain to these losses.

2.10.41 18:50 and 18:52. 2 more Spitfires over Pas de Calais. Said to be claimed against the Biggin Hill Wing. All losses this day incurred by 92 sqn and include W3459 of F/L J W Lund, W3137 of Sgt N H Edge and W3762 of Sgt K G Port all KIA, P/O D A Bruce injured in W3657

13.10.41 14:30 Spitfire, Bolougne-Channel. Definitely lost near Boulogne were 41 sqn, AB826 of F/O L L Bache plus R7258 of Sgt. J L Whiteford and AB821 of 65 sqn, Sgt. D H Warden (all KIA and buried there). Beyond that, this one is kind of hard to trace. There were many claims and losses and this is the best job of narrowing it all down that I have managed to date, apologies for the vagueness...

12.2.42 14:55 Spitfire, Channel Front. Haven't yet found a matching loss, but considering it was the confusing "Channel Dash" combats, he deserves the benefit of the doubt I'd say...

17.2.42 15:08 Spitfire, near Calais. Probably BL590 of 403 sqn RCAF. F/S Messum baled out and rescued by allied launch (although timing seems a little late)
20.4.42 17:07 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

22.4.42 14:32 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

25.4.42 16:24 and 16:29 Spitfires, Channel Front. I haven't fully reconciled this date's combats. Sorry about that....

30.4.42 17:27 Spitfire, Channel Front. This may have been BL330/ON-T of 124 "Baroda" sqn. Damaged by a Bf109F on raid to Dunkirk or the 313 sqn Spitfire damaged in the afternoon. I have yet to resolve that, sorry again for the vagueness....

4.5.42 10:41 and 10:46 Spitfires over the Channel Front. Known victims of the morning's combat include 121 sqn's P8794 of P/O R W Freiberg and AD460 of P/O R V Brossmer plus W3947 of 340 (Free French) sqn, Sgt. P Q Bourgeois (acknowledged JG 2 victim) (all KIA) 4 claims at least for these ones...

4.5.42 15:55 Spitfire over the Channel Front. Known victims of the afternoon's combat include 41 sqn's BL404/EB-X of P/O J J Allen damaged, 129 "Mysore" sqn's BM421 of P/O V E Tucker KIA and BM319 of F/S H D McPhee RCAF also KIA. At least 2 other claims for these losses...

6.5.42 12:22 and 12:24 Spitfires over the Channel Front. Likely 72 or 401 sqn RCAF. 72 suffered AB848 of P/O D O Waters RNZAF damaged and 401 lost BM429 of F/S D R Morrison damaged, bellylanded at Shoreham. Total of 5 claims for these losses so clear overclaiming.

6.6.42 17:25, 17:25 and 17:27 Spitfires over Cherbourg-Cap Levy (Ramrod 21 to Theville). Overclaiming (there were about a dozen claims). Only losses were: Mk VB BL984, S/L John Champion Carver DFC and EN975, Sgt. Lloyd Henry Jones RCAF. Both from 118 sqn and both KIA. 175 sqn had Hurricane IIE BE502 of Sgt. Rosser damaged.

16.9.42 13:15 Spitfire over the Channel Front. Possibly AB859 of 122 sqn, Sgt. G Nadan. Reported to have crashed on patrol due to unknown causes

[Johannes]

Hi Nick

It's a delicate subject "over-claiming". I'm sure that when we examine losses to claims there are pilots who thought their victims went down, but didn't. Hahn I would say was a deliberate over-claimer, typical of a JG 2 pilot, yet JG 26's pilots were the opposite....generally very honest, but all so Schmid strings to mind, but then again he transferred to JG 26 from JG 2!!!

Regarding Hahn's score before his transfer to JG 54 in Russia. This total is Sixty-two, no heavy bombers. Probably at least another five unconfirmed, then forty-three in Russia giving a total of 105 confirmed. His Russian claims are in a pattern typical of a deliberate overclaimer:-

4th December 1942 X 4 (63-66)
30th December 1942 X 5 (71-75)
14th January 1943 X 7 (76-82)
23rd January 1943 X 5 (83-87)
24th January 1943 X 4 (87-91)
25th January 1943 X 3 (92-94)
26th January 1943 X 3 (95-97)
11th February 1943 X 3 (101-103)

Only thing unusual about his claiming is not having a big day for his 100th, just two on 9th February 1943(99-100) very often an over-claimer has a huge day to acquire his 100th.........just a noticeable fact!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Andy Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

20.4.42 17:07 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

22.4.42 14:32 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

Hi Nick,

No losses of photo recce aircraft on the Channel Front on the above dates although 1 PRU and 140 Sqn were active on both days over France. 1 PRU did lose one aircraft on 22 Apr 42 but it was over the Dutch Frisian Islands.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher