Erich Hartmann - several questions

[krichter33]

I would love a Barkhorn book. He's one of the lesser known aces, despite his high credited score. It should be interesting.

[Nokose]

Mars,
Yes, that was a "shameful" event if what happen to the refugees happen as described in the book.
Diego,
I have another source for the 20Aug43 incident with Hartmann being shot down from "Над Огненной Дугой" by Vitaliy Gorbach. Chapter 5.3 "On 20 August Erich Hartmann will be shot down by the fire of a Shturmovik from the composition of the 8 VA and only good luck will allow the future Luftwaffe star to avoid waiting to the end of the war in a prisoner of war camp". He doesn't say what regiment, pilot or gunner.

[Buz]

This has been an interesting discussion, but alas the want to review a pilot’s score seems to be the "in thing" these days.

I acknowledge that over claiming is a constant in war, especially air side of the conflict, with closure speeds in excess of 700mph, split second the opposition is in the gun sight, the need to keep the head on a swivel stick, the need to keep control of your aircraft, and most importantly the need and want to survive.

Of interest I find the statements in this discussion about Hans-Joachim Marseille's claims as being quite accurate of note, due to my own interest in the Curtiss Kittyhawk Family.

I will firstly state that my belief is that Marseille's score is and always will be 158. I, however, have yet to be able to confirm all his claims against first and second source data for the P-40 aircraft. Does this make him a "fraudster" - certainly not, does it mean that P-40/P-46 claims were miss-identified - possibly (in the case of the P-46 certainly). Could it be that the aircraft although damaged made it back to home plate, the pilot claiming in good faith - certainly (bare in mind just how much damage a P-40 can take - I'll also assume that the Russian aircraft could also take a beating as well).

Does this mean I must review and write to the world that his score was “XX”, being lower than what he claimed - Not at all. I can tell the world with some certainty which of his claims can be tallied with available records, the rest are presently unidentified, or in some cases disputed as other German pilots claimed during the same sorties/timeframes/areas as well as other airforce pilots claiming as well.

Maybe a thought would be post the ones that can be verified through other documentation (sources quoted), and that way others who may have additional data from untapped sources can add or provide further relevant details, so that we as a community can further our knowledge of these airmen.

I believe that people should understand that the scores stand, for right or wrong. Also in many cases the primary source of data is no longer available to be checked - These being the pilots themselves.....most are not here to defend themselves. The written records, both official and unofficial can and are at time in error, with both dates, times and in some cases area.

In many cases this form of historical need for accuracy is a blight to our research as I know personally of pilots not wishing to discuss their operations and experiences because "What's the point, no-one believes us anyhow" (direct quote from one pilot).

Regards

Buz

[Rob Romero]

Diego,

Yes I think we would all be interested in your chart on which Experten were shot down and by whom?

Thanks!

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Rob:

Originally Posted by Rob Romero

Diego,
Yes I think we would all be interested in your chart on which Experten were shot down and by whom?
Thanks!

Always a pleisure. What follows are some of the cases when Il-2 Shturmovik pilots shot down German aircraft, including fighters (and experten):
-24.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.109F-4/R1 W.Nr.13388 Obltn. Erwin Stracnicky Staffelkapitan 2./JG 3 Experte with 35 victories
-25.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Ju.88A-4 W.Nr.5540 Uffz. Karl Stoll + 3 crewmembers 6./KG 76.
-29.08.1942 Grigoriy S. Danilov (807 ShAP) Bf.110E-2 "S9+BH" Unknown crew 1./ZG 1.
-5.09.1942 Ivan Vovkogon (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.14239 Hptm. Hans Oehlschläger Stab I./JG 52.
-5.09.1942 Fiodor Zhigarin (299 ShAP) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.? Unknown crew (50% damage) 3./JG 52
-9.09.1942 Pavel S. Vinogradov (694 ShAP, 228 ShAD) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13442 Ltn. Alfred Franke (KIA) 2./JG 53 Experte with 60 victories
-29.09.1942 Aleksandr Scherbanin (57 ShAP KBF) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13613 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 11./JG 54 Experte with 29 victories then, he would claim a total of 33 Taran Scherbanin KIA.
-21.02.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Bf.109G-2/R6 W.Nr.13949 Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn (POW) Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54 Experte with 108 victories
-20.08.1943 Of course the already mentioned case of Pavel Evdokimov downing Erich Hartmann.
-8.09.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Ju.87D-5 W.Nr.130845 Unknown crew (30% damage) 8./StG 2.
-14.02.1945 Vasiliy Karaman (806 ShAP, 206 ShAD) Fw.190A-8 W.Nr.960282 Obltn. Otto Kittel (KIA) 2./JG 54 Experte with 267 victories
Those are only same examples (I'm still researching about this matter). But so far it seems that in many cases the Shturmovik fliers were not the preys, but instead became the hunters.
I hope this info helps you, Rob.
Diego

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

-29.09.1942 Aleksandr Scherbanin (57 ShAP KBF) Bf.109G-2 W.Nr.13613 Ltn. Erwin Leykauf 11./JG 54 Experte with 29 victories then, he would claim a total of 33 Taran Scherbanin KIA.

Regarding his flightbook he was shot down by light russian AAA ... nothing from "Feindberührung mit IL 2" or taran .

regards
Rasmussen

[Evgeny Velichko]

Originally Posted by DiegoZampini

...
-21.02.1943 Talgat Y. Begeldinov (144 GShAP, 9 GShAD) Bf.109G-2/R6 W.Nr.13949 Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn (POW) Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54 Experte with 108 victories...
Diego

Diego: Talgat is wrong lad here. I will quote a part of research of N.Egorov and M.Bykov (sorry, in russian, have no time now to translate. May be Nokose could help?)

Незадолго до 9.00 утра с аэродрома Рельбицы поднялась шестерка Ме-109, ведомая командиром II/JG54, майором Ханом. Задачей шестерки была свободная охота и поиск советских самолетов атаковавших отступающие от Демянска немецкие колонны. Район охоты обозначен зап. Демянска - Рамушево. Примерно в это же время (плюс два часа по Москве. Разница плюс зимнее время) с аэродрома Заборовье поднялась шестерка Ла-5, 169 ИАП, ведомая капитаном Числовым, с задачей патрулирования района котла.
По докладу ведомого Хана, оберлейтенанта Штотца, контакт с группой 8 Ла-5, состоялся в 9.09 над южной кромкой котла, на высоте 2500 метров. Пара Хан-Штотц отделилась от группы и атаковала советские самолеты с превышения в 200 м. По воспоминаниям Хана, они атаковали группу Аэрокобр, после чего Хан сбил одного, который взорвался в воздухе, а самолет атакованый Штоцем сильно задымил, после чего из него выпрыгнул летчик. По нашим данным в первой атаке был сбит и погиб старший лейтенант Воробьев, а младший лейтенант Баландин сумел покинуть горящую машину с парашютом. После чего обе группы и наша и немецкая рассеялись и бой продолжался в в виде отдельных столкновений. Штотц потерял ведущего и был вовлечен в маневренный бой с лидером советской группы, после чего подбитый самолет Числова вынужден был выйти из боя и тянуть в сторону своего аэродрома. Хан попытался атаковать самолет Гражданинова, но сам подвергся атаке, его ведомого, старшего сержанта Давыдова. Бой Хана наблюдали немцы из оставшейся четверки. После того, как Хан остался один против двух советских самолетов, к нему на помощь поспешила пара Оберфельдфебеля Реппле. По докладу самого Реппле: "Я хотел атаковать Ла-5, летевший чуть ниже. Но увидел, что он уже находится под атакой Ме-109. Я идентифицировал наш самолет, как принадлежавший майору Хану. Тогда я стал набирать высоту. Вскоре после этого заметил два самолета, и понял, что это Ла-5-е. Я стал пикировать на них и заметил, что они преследуют Ме-109." Однако Реппле опоздал, Гражданинов и Давыдов добились попаданий в Ме-109. Реппле успел сделать только длиную заградительную очередь, после чего, оба Ла-5 прекратили атаки и ушли на юг. Подбитый Ме-109 стал снижаться в северо-западном напралении к своей территории. По словам Реппле видимых повреждений на нем не было.
Хан не дотянул до своих. Он последний раз связался со Штотцем и передал следующее: "Штотц, они преподали папе хороший урок. Я должен совершить вынужденную посадку". После чего сел возле дороги из Новой Деревни, юго-западнее Демянска, недалеко от проходящей маршевой колонны.
Хан был доставлен в Заборовье, где встретился с пилотами 32 ГИАП и 169 ИАП.
После чего, он был перевезен в Выползово. Где его допрашивали несколько раз.

Бой воспроизведен по следующим источникам:

ЦАМО. Оперсводки 63 ГИАП.
ЦАМО. Оперсводки 3 ГИАД.
BA/MA. RLM victory rolls.
М. Быков. Списки побед летчиков ВВС РККА 1941-1945 гг.
J. Crandall "Major Hans "Assi" Hahn. The Man and his machines"
H. Hahn "Ich spreche die Wahrheit"
Ф. Полынин "Боевые маршруты"
Ф. Костенко "Корпус крылатой гвардии"

[Johannes]

Hi

Regarding the term "fraudulent", I would use this as an advancement on "overclaim", yes, Wurmheller was such a severe overclaimer that it was more than that. Do you remember the Jg27 ace who crept up behind the unit super Schwarm and found them firing-off there amo over the desert, and retuned to tell his C.O what he had seen, and you know that when they got back, it was all heavy claiming......that's fraudulence. now Jg26 and Jg2 often overlapped, attacking the same formations, when Jg26 claimed alone, it was more than quite accurate, when the wto both claimed the Allied losses simply did not match up to Luftwaffe claims, yet some Jg2 pilots were honest. Assuming that the Russian losses have been calculated correctly then Jg5 were above overclaiming, in fact overclaiming can be acquired by just being mistaking, if you think it went down are you a fraud or just plain mistaken. Another person who made outrageous claims was August Lambert, he was disliked by his C.O, jealousy, or did his C.O suspect somthing?
With Jg5 it would seem that it wasn't just get one claim two, if fact I read somewhere that this units pilots were quite happy to witness more claims than actually occurence, well in the far North anyway!
Strange thing also about Hartmann, only two u/c ever!
Perhaps we need the Russian actual losses so we can scrutinise them!

Regards

Johannes

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Johannes:

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi
Another person who made outrageous claims was August Lambert, he was disliked by his C.O, jealousy, or did his C.O suspect somthing?

Not surprisingly, both Hartmann and Lambert fought in the same place - Crimea peninsula. I barely researched about this matter, but it seems that the Soviet actual losses of 4 VA and VVS ChF in late 1943-early 1944 were not that serious like the claims of JG 52 and SchG 1 might indicate.

With Jg5 it would seem that it wasn't just get one claim two, if fact I read somewhere that this units pilots were quite happy to witness more claims than actually occurence, well in the far North anyway!

You are talking about the article "Pishem 8, 2 v ume" ("We write 8, but have 2 in mind"): The author clearly shows the huge overclaiming of one of the JG 5 "stars" - Rudolf Müller. Only 37 out of his 92 claims can be corroborated by Soviet records, and so did all his buddies.

Strange thing also about Hartmann, only two u/c ever!
Perhaps we need the Russian actual losses so we can scrutinise them!

It seems that Eduard Morozov (author of Vozdushnaya Bitva na Sevastopole 1941-1942 gg (Air Battle over Sevastopol 1941-42) prepares a new book about the air battles over Crimea 1943-44. It might help a lot to clarify how many losses did the Russians suffer, and to solve this discussion (at least regarding Hartmann and Albert).
Kind regards,
Diego

[ruspren]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi

Do you remember the Jg27 ace who crept up behind the unit super Schwarm and found them firing-off there amo over the desert, and retuned to tell his C.O what he had seen, and you know that when they got back, it was all heavy claiming......that's fraudulence.
Regards

Johannes

It was "Fifi" Stahlschmidt of 2.JG/27 who "crept up on" that Schwarm. They were making fraudulent claims and yet you don't name them!
Vogel,Sawallisch,Bendert and Stigler of 4.JG27. They got away with it despite a going over from the Gruppenkommandeur (Gustav Roedel). They were however "seperated".
Russ.