Erich Hartmann - several questions

[DiegoZampini]

Dear Johannes:

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi
Another person who made outrageous claims was August Lambert, he was disliked by his C.O, jealousy, or did his C.O suspect somthing?

Not surprisingly, both Hartmann and Lambert fought in the same place - Crimea peninsula. I barely researched about this matter, but it seems that the Soviet actual losses of 4 VA and VVS ChF in late 1943-early 1944 were not that serious like the claims of JG 52 and SchG 1 might indicate.

With Jg5 it would seem that it wasn't just get one claim two, if fact I read somewhere that this units pilots were quite happy to witness more claims than actually occurence, well in the far North anyway!

You are talking about the article "Pishem 8, 2 v ume" ("We write 8, but have 2 in mind"): The author clearly shows the huge overclaiming of one of the JG 5 "stars" - Rudolf Müller. Only 37 out of his 92 claims can be corroborated by Soviet records, and so did all his buddies.

Strange thing also about Hartmann, only two u/c ever!
Perhaps we need the Russian actual losses so we can scrutinise them!

It seems that Eduard Morozov (author of Vozdushnaya Bitva na Sevastopole 1941-1942 gg (Air Battle over Sevastopol 1941-42) prepares a new book about the air battles over Crimea 1943-44. It might help a lot to clarify how many losses did the Russians suffer, and to solve this discussion (at least regarding Hartmann and Albert).
Kind regards,
Diego

[ruspren]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi

Do you remember the Jg27 ace who crept up behind the unit super Schwarm and found them firing-off there amo over the desert, and retuned to tell his C.O what he had seen, and you know that when they got back, it was all heavy claiming......that's fraudulence.
Regards

Johannes

It was "Fifi" Stahlschmidt of 2.JG/27 who "crept up on" that Schwarm. They were making fraudulent claims and yet you don't name them!
Vogel,Sawallisch,Bendert and Stigler of 4.JG27. They got away with it despite a going over from the Gruppenkommandeur (Gustav Roedel). They were however "seperated".
Russ.

[DiegoZampini]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Mars,
Yes, that was a "shameful" event if what happen to the refugees happen as described in the book.

Yes, if it happened, indeed is shamefull - teenagers and little girls raped and murdered by Soviet soldiers. BUT I WANT ALSO TO REMIND YOU, THAT ALSO ACCORDING TO HARTMANN HIMSELF, THOSE MONSTERS WERE IMMEDIATELY EXECUTED THE NEXT DAY, WHEN A RUSSIAN GENERAL ARRIVED TO THE AREA.
I INVESTIGATED THE MATTER, AND MY CONCLUSION IS THAT RAPING WAS NOT NEITHER TOLERATED NOR ENCOURAGED BY SOVIET COMMANDERS - WHEN DISCOVERED, THIS KIND OF CRIME WAS PUNISHED WITH FAST TRIALS AND IMMEDIATE EXECUTION.

Diego,
I have another source for the 20Aug43 incident with Hartmann being shot down from "Над Огненной Дугой" by Vitaliy Gorbach. Chapter 5.3 "On 20 August Erich Hartmann will be shot down by the fire of a Shturmovik from the composition of the 8 VA and only good luck will allow the future Luftwaffe star to avoid waiting to the end of the war in a prisoner of war camp". He doesn't say what regiment, pilot or gunner.

The work of Gorbach is interesting. Thanks for quoting it!! In any case, it did not discard that Leytenant Pavel Evdokimov had downed Hartamnn's using his Il-2 Shturmovik like a fighter that day.
BTW, Nokose: I read in several sources that Hartmann was shot down or had to belly land 14 times. But so far I could identify only 3 of them:
5.11.1942 - downed by Il-2 rear gunner of 7 GShAP.
25.05.1943 - was apparently shot down by a LaGG-3 in a "taran" while flying Bf.109G-4 W.Nr. 14997.
20.08.1943 - probably (I have no doubt) by Il-2 pilot Pavel Evdokimov.
Nokose: Did you (or anyone) know when ocurred the remaining 11 times that he crash-landed?
Kind regards to all
Diego