Late war Bf 109 pictures source

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Right!

and I'm sorry ... you got the rushes not the published article!!
I understand now you didn't!!

Cheers, Franck.

Got it... Thanks!
Marc

[PhilippeDM]

Marc,

Beautifull collection of pictures and RV bands. However I feel you missed the Bf 109's wearing red/black KG(J)6 bands. Pictures appears in Polish and/or Czech publications. Could be K-4 types, but when I sniffed arround on your picture DB, I saw K-4 too (not to mention the color picture at Kaufbeuren with a KG(J)27 Bf 109....

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Philippe,

Thanks for your praise. You're correct about KG (J) 6; I remember having seen at least one such machine of which I don't have the pic. Any pointer?

Nick,

There's a real oddity here... Thanks for underlining it! By the way, i can't thank you enough for your publishing of original transcripts about those RV bands here: http://www.ghostbombers.com/markings/bands1.html

Through your website, you make us all precious gifts.
Marc

[John Manrho]

I studied the LuWa article and still have the opinion that this is not a III./JG 6 a/c. Let me explain why.

First of all, as I stated above, the a/c has no vertical III. Gruppe bar. I have several pictures of 109's of III./JG 6 from the period Feb-April 1945 and these have all a vertical III. Gruppe bar. Unfortunately I have no picture of the Nov-Dec 1944 period. I had contact with 80 former members of III./JG 6 or their relatives but found no pictures of that period. The 109's from Sept-Oct 1944 show no bar, but that is obvious as these belonged to I./JG 5 which had no bar. One well known picture of WNr 491404 taken in March 1945 shows clearly the III. Gruppe bar. I see no reason why III./JG 6 would apply the vertical bars in February 1945 and not direct after their renaming in October 1944.

Indeed the crashed enemy aircraft reports give indications for the red-white-red markings of JG 6 a/c lost during Bodenplatte. Kogler's a/c (Stab JG 6) was marked red-white-red and according to CEA #264 Trost's a/c (2./JG 6)was marked white-red-white, which is more than likely a clerical error. The a/c of Jung (2./JG 6) and Fries (4./JG 6) were also found but were destroyed and no mention of the bands were made. Grabmair's Fw 190 (5./JG 6) was also found with a red-white-red band. It seems consistent that these 190's were marked with red-white-red.

The 109's are more difficult. Rose's a/c (9./JG 6) is mentioned in the CEA #264 but without bands, although he bellylanded his a/c. Perhaps not yet painted? Schlossborn's a/c (9./JG 6) was also found and again red-white-red is mentioned! Betz's a/c (10./JG 6) is mentioned in a seperate report and now only red-white is reported with red closer to the cockpit. However, I have a picture of the crashsite and the a/c is totally destroyed. Krumm's a/c (12./JG 6) is also in CEA #264 and now the bands are listed as red-white again. However, in my opinion not clearly described which band is first. Again, Krumm's a/c was totally destroyed.

Also the picture showing Schwerdtfeger's a/c is imho not conclusive, at least the red is closer to the cockpit and it might even be that the aft red band is not clearly visible. Also, although I used it in my Bodenplatte book, I am now not 100% convinced this is Schwerdtfeger's a/c.

Assuming that 784938 has a white-red band and belongs to III./JG 6 is for me a bridge too far.....

Regards,

John

[Nick Beale]

Also, the AI2(G) reports include several aircraft with the white/green band of JG 77. If we find photographs that appear to show a white/green marking that we know was allocated and we know was applied to operational aircraft, then that is pretty strong evidence that it is green/white. Of course a previously unknown, unofficial red/white marking is possible but if anyone is confident that he can tell red from green in a monochrome photo with certainty, he is way ahead of me!

I do agree with John that sometimes interpreting the crash reports is more art than science; different investigators reported in different ways and simple mistakes were made.

[John Manrho]

In my Bodenplatte book you will find Abendroth's K-4 of III./JG 77 with white-green band (page 257).

Cheers,

John

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

In my Bodenplatte book you will find Abendroth's K-4 of III./JG 77 with white-green band (page 257).

Cheers,

John

John,

Many thanks for your valued input! After browsing through the 143 pictures available (thanks for Abendroth's W.Nr. 330 204!), I tend to concur with you: it is next to impossible to decide between JG 6 and JG 77 on b/w pics without the input of CEA reports... It would be fantastic to have the latter online. Nick could this be a possibility?

Cheers
Marc

[Cpt_Farrel]

While I'm not convinced in either way on JG6 bands I would say that any evidence for or against any theory would need to stem from within the same Gruppe, I can hardly think of any Geschwader that had consistent markings throughout all its gruppen. From the battle of Britain to the end of the war, I.D. colors and numerals seems to have been interpreted and applied at Gruppe level.

/Anders

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel

While I'm not convinced in either way on JG6 bands I would say that any evidence for or against any theory would need to stem from within the same Gruppe, I can hardly think of any Geschwader that had consistent markings throughout all its gruppen. From the battle of Britain to the end of the war, I.D. colors and numerals seems to have been interpreted and applied at Gruppe level.

/Anders

Hej Anders,

On my side, I would see two JG's with a very constant way of applying RV markings as a whole: JG 27 and JG 53. Not sure if JG 4 and JG 300 were that thorough for all their Staffeln, but this could be another possibility...

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann

Hej Anders,

On my side, I would see two JG's with a very constant way of applying RV markings as a whole: JG 27 and JG 53. Not sure if JG 4 and JG 300 were that thorough for all their Staffeln, but this could be another possibility...

Cheers
Marc

Hi Marc,

Yes, I agree with you though there is not enough photos available for the moment.
(Fw 190 and Bf 109 situation seems quite different whatever; unless you want to open a Fw 190 collection ? )

I concur with Anders too; his idea is quite pretty good to trace the RV band Inside one unit...

Last - but not the least: We cannot forget JG 301...
We already found some (only one?) Bf 109 with INVERSED band order (Yellow-Red instead of Red-Yellow - or the contrary; don't remember) and this was discussed in LEMB, times ago. I.e. exactly the situation described by Kees. And no one said it was "hairy" if I do remember well.

Regards, Franck.