Helmut wicks 2 17/5 unclaims

[ahafan]

Hello'
I read that Helmut wick, of JG2 shot down "2 Biplanes off calais.
he shot (2 biplanes) but had no wittness to these planes.
any info-on what might the planes been..I think they were Albarcores.
read they flew first mission around that aeras.
sharon'

[Johannes]

Hi

Wicks 2nd to 5th claims were all unconfirmed.........perhaps his witnesses were honest, he certainly was not, the two you speak of would be Swordfishes:-

30th April 1940 Po63 Trier area u/c
17th May 1940 LeO 451 Rethel area u/c
19th May 1940 Swordfish Calais area u/c
19th May 1940 Swordfish Caais area u/c

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S I could find no British losses for Swordfish's on this date!

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi

Wicks 2nd to 5th claims were all unconfirmed.........perhaps his witnesses were honest, he certainly was not, the two you speak of would be Swordfishes:-

30th April 1940 Po63 Trier area u/c
17th May 1940 LeO 451 Rethel area u/c
19th May 1940 Swordfish Calais area u/c
19th May 1940 Swordfish Caais area u/c

Kind Regards

Johannes
Helllo


P.S I could find no British losses for Swordfish's on this date!

thank you.
why was he a liar? his there any sites i can look up more for info-
and about his barrage balloons in august he never counted them as victorys .but had ground wittnessd Alex McKee? 16/18/8/40
sharon

[Johannes]

Regarding being a liar:-

I guess you have to have it in you, but that alone is not enough, you find the ambitious ones were the worst, especially the leaders i.e first to 100, 150 200, 250, 300, but ontop of this you cannot do it alone, you need witnesses, and certain units were honest JG26(perhaps because of Honest Galland) springs to mind, and then there are units where it was rife i.e JG5 and JG2, but not all pilots were dis-honest in dis-honest unit's, it probably went down to Staffel's and even individual Schwarms. At Wicks time there were three big leading aces Wick, Galland and Mölders, so if we take that as a medium a third were dis-honest, being a ranking officer also helped, a good indicator would be big days, Wick had them, Galland certainly did not, Mölders between the two, but was honest.

There is speculation now about Erich Hartmann and Wilhelm Batz, both changed from being low scorers to massive claimers in a blink of an eye....after returning from a break, if there fraudulence is true(still not 100% proven) then I bet they returned to different comrades, perhaps somebody could confirm/dis-prove this theory?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Kapper]

Johannes,

Dr Prein in his JFV series list all of Wick's 56 claims of which the 4 you have listed are not included. Of the 56 listed he noted 53 with the 'B' saying he has evidence that these were confirmed. The 3 not marked this way were his first on 22 Nov 39, one of his 3 claims on 11 Aug 40 and a claim 16 Aug 40. I suggest that these 4 claims were not confirmed (i.e. rejected) rather than being unconfirmed.

Also of note is that on Kacha's page for Wick on the internet the 2 Swordfish claims were dated for the 31 May 40. The post here says 17th, you say 19th, Kacha says 31st, which is correct?

Regards,

Craig..

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Regarding being a liar:-

I guess you have to have it in you, but that alone is not enough, you find the ambitious ones were the worst, especially the leaders i.e first to 100, 150 200, 250, 300, but ontop of this you cannot do it alone, you need witnesses, and certain units were honest JG26(perhaps because of Honest Galland) springs to mind, and then there are units where it was rife i.e JG5 and JG2, but not all pilots were dis-honest in dis-honest unit's, it probably went down to Staffel's and even individual Schwarms. At Wicks time there were three big leading aces Wick, Galland and Mölders, so if we take that as a medium a third were dis-honest, being a ranking officer also helped, a good indicator would be big days, Wick had them, Galland certainly did not, Mölders between the two, but was honest.

There is speculation now about Erich Hartmann and Wilhelm Batz, both changed from being low scorers to massive claimers in a blink of an eye....after returning from a break, if there fraudulence is true(still not 100% proven) then I bet they returned to different comrades, perhaps somebody could confirm/dis-prove this theory?

Kind Regards

Johannes

thanks and what of his 1 hurricane then back coming (3) spitfires on 5/11/40 -No Losses have been traced so who verified them? spitfires

Intresting ..
sharon

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by Kapper

Johannes,

Dr Prein in his JFV series list all of Wick's 56 claims of which the 4 you have listed are not included. Of the 56 listed he noted 53 with the 'B' saying he has evidence that these were confirmed. The 3 not marked this way were his first on 22 Nov 39, one of his 3 claims on 11 Aug 40 and a claim 16 Aug 40. I suggest that these 4 claims were not confirmed (i.e. rejected) rather than being unconfirmed.

Also of note is that on Kacha's page for Wick on the internet the 2 Swordfish claims were dated for the 31 May 40. The post here says 17th, you say 19th, Kacha says 31st, which is correct?

Regards,

Craig..

hello
and thank you too.
can you give me the dates of ALL of his uncomfirmed kills if possible.
as i have no books.
-----------
sharon.
---------
ps ,I have a friend who his the top worlds radio prizes won -some 600 all recorded on cassette..and book listing-
and I said what if you lied made up-a prize .
He said id feel empty.in myself- there his No joy-NO Victory felt?

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Regarding Wicks marked or not with a ß, this denotes them as listed in the typed out micro film lists for individual Staffel's, this micro film does not list altitude or place, however there is a sub list for the period of war's start until end July 1942 listing claims that were problematical, this could be lack of altitude recorded, or perhaps lack of time, or some other technicality that warranted further investigation, but would have been later confirmed. Many claims boards for individual Staffel's include u/c as they wouldn't know at the time that they would be ultimately rejected.

The typed out micro films(usually covering the period upto end July 1942) doesn't cover every unit(i.e some have yet to be discovered, or have been distroyed)

As Wicks units are covered, I can say he had fifty-six confirmed, but this doesn't mean he shot down fifty-six aircraft, a honest pilot would/should be 65%-75% accurate in determining whether or not they actually crashed, I think a TOCH member worked out the units in the Med's reliability, by memory JG27 and JG53 were good, JG77 even better, and JG2 awful.

JG27's staffel claims boards even mark certain claims as u/c.....Werner Schroer's string to mind, and his u/c seem actually to have crashed!.....yet they are included in his 114!

But returning to u/c, it's hard to believe anything that didn't show up in a logbook, but not on the micro films(when it should), or on a claims board, but not on the micro films(when it should). The British also didn't lose any Swordfishes on any of the other dates mentioned, I don't think that it's a case of mis-identification as a swordfish doesn't look much like any other aircraft of the time.

It should be mentioned that as a rule if JG26 claims a number of aircraft the Allied losses are a pretty good match(accepting the 65% rule) but JG2's are not, when both units are involved it makes the JG26 pilots look a little suspect, but they were generally honest guys(there are always exeptions), same can be said about the JG2 pilots, Meimberg was respected so much perhaps because while most others around him were frauds he was honest!

The question of Marseille often arises, firstly six of his first seven in the West were u/c(reducing his total to 152) for those in Africa I believe he was inaccurate, as opposed to a fraud i.e he thought he had downed them, in fact his wingman would complain of being pre-occupied in just trying to keep up this the victims crash. This is dispite the fact that Marseille seems to have had a big ego, counterwise Wurmheller not only looked and acted like Marseille, he also had his enemies(Egon Mayer for one), yet Wurmheller was unlike Marseille only in his claims i.e he was a fraud, but I suspect that perhaps his JG53 claims were honest, i.e it is also down to oppotunity(he had none in JG53)
Marseille's rudder though records 158 victories, but u/c can also appear on rudder's i.e von Werra and Rollwage!

Wicks claim for 22nd November 1939 does appear on the typed out micro film, but the other two mentioned are on the sub list!

Regards

Johannes

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Guys

Regarding Wicks marked or not with a ß, this denotes them as listed in the typed out micro film lists for individual Staffel's, this micro film does not list altitude or place, however there is a sub list for the period of war's start until end July 1942 listing claims that were problematical, this could be lack of altitude recorded, or perhaps lack of time, or some other technicality that warranted further investigation, but would have been later confirmed. Many claims boards for individual Staffel's include u/c as they wouldn't know at the time that they would be ultimately rejected.

The typed out micro films(usually covering the period upto end July 1942) doesn't cover every unit(i.e some have yet to be discovered, or have been distroyed)

As Wicks units are covered, I can say he had fifty-six confirmed, but this doesn't mean he shot down fifty-six aircraft, a honest pilot would/should be 65%-75% accurate in determining whether or not they actually crashed, I think a TOCH member worked out the units in the Med's reliability, by memory JG27 and JG53 were good, JG77 even better, and JG2 awful.

JG27's staffel claims boards even mark certain claims as u/c.....Werner Schroer's string to mind, and his u/c seem actually to have crashed!.....yet they are included in his 114!

But returning to u/c, it's hard to believe anything that didn't show up in a logbook, but not on the micro films(when it should), or on a claims board, but not on the micro films(when it should). The British also didn't lose any Swordfishes on any of the other dates mentioned, I don't think that it's a case of mis-identification as a swordfish doesn't look much like any other aircraft of the time.

It should be mentioned that as a rule if JG26 claims a number of aircraft the Allied losses are a pretty good match(accepting the 65% rule) but JG2's are not, when both units are involved it makes the JG26 pilots look a little suspect, but they were generally honest guys(there are always exeptions), same can be said about the JG2 pilots, Meimberg was respected so much perhaps because while most others around him were frauds he was honest!

The question of Marseille often arises, firstly six of his first seven in the West were u/c(reducing his total to 152) for those in Africa I believe he was inaccurate, as opposed to a fraud i.e he thought he had downed them, in fact his wingman would complain of being pre-occupied in just trying to keep up this the victims crash. This is dispite the fact that Marseille seems to have had a big ego, counterwise Wurmheller not only looked and acted like Marseille, he also had his enemies(Egon Mayer for one), yet Wurmheller was unlike Marseille only in his claims i.e he was a fraud, but I suspect that perhaps his JG53 claims were honest, i.e it is also down to oppotunity(he had none in JG53)
Marseille's rudder though records 158 victories, but u/c can also appear on rudder's i.e von Werra and Rollwage!

Wicks claim for 22nd November 1939 does appear on the typed out micro film, but the other two mentioned are on the sub list!

Regards

Johannes

On Werra's -score the 9 (sic) claims on 28/8/40-were only ground claims, werra never claimed them as air victories..as his aircraft had them pointed downwards arrows.the high office.only gave him these as ground kills in fact 2-3 were airbourne as he stated.when he shot down these..
PS i think his tale his true-but the base might have been eastchurch
sharon

[Nokose]

I read about Franz von Werra in a book on his career concerning his combat over Britian and being shot down. The incident he had of the "Hurricanes" taking off that he shot down. He had no witness for this. The German news printed it as "fact". On being captured is interriogator brought it up and he stated that he didn't see them go down as he attacked alone but the German news media insisted on running it as the truth. His story of his escape was well documented. I believe his time in Russia was probably more correct but by then he was already wearing the Knights Cross for escaping from a POW camp in Canada and getting from the USA back to Germany.